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Old 11-06-2012, 07:38 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Oh I just love when a thread goes extreme.

Generally speaking, to those who think damaging a car in retaliation for an avoided mishap is okay: At what point do you think it became personal, or rather a physical altercation? Everyone and I do mean EVERYONE has made mistakes, miscalculations, bad decisions, etc, myself included. So what makes you better than anyone else? Just because you make eye contact with a driver and think they maliciously pulled out in front/cut you off, does not mean that is actually what happened. There are a million reasons why things happen, but how you as a responsible motorcyclist perceive them can make ALL the difference. The driver could have honestly not seen you, maybe had a brief moment of "I can make it" or maybe you were in their blind spot, or washed out by certain lighting/shadows/objects on the road.

If you made it through unscathed, using your obstacle avoidance maneuvering skills and then proceed to take physical action in damaging their vehicle, who then is the aggressor? If somebody made a physical threat like that to me while I was in my car, now it becomes self defense and I will retaliate to protect myself, my family and my property. That can range from as simple as getting your license plate number and calling the police, to whatever use of force I determine is necessary based on the aggression of this person. Who do you think will end up in jail first? Is it worth it?

Let's say my own wife has a momentary lapse of judgement and pulls out in front of you and YOU AVOID the potential accident. I can understand a hand gesture, or WTF body language. But I can tell you if a road raged rider then smacked off the mirror of my wife's car, or kicked it and damaged it somehow, I can assure you that you would be tracked by your license plate, investigated by the police and sent the bill.

Worse case scenario, there are plenty of videos in which we see road rage out of control and a caged driver hunting down a motorcyclist with obvious intent of harm. Some are the motorcyclist fault in enraging the driver, others are purely road rage to blame on the cager. But who will win when that truck or SUV knocks you off your scoot?

Us as riders WILLINGLY take on more responsibility for our own life the moment we get on our motorcycle. We know the risks. Why would you elevate the issue that did not harm anyone other than your having to drive a bit more defensively? Who really is provoking violence and at what point?

Regarding carrying a firearm, I 'carry' as well. However, I do not carry my weapon to seek out trouble. If somebody cuts me off, runs a light/sign, I will let them know by gestures alone. Most of my situations have ended with me either not seeing their reaction after my having let them know, or a simple facial expression of "sorry". Good enough for me. Honestly, I have never read in any news about a rider drawing a weapon and shooting down a vehicle chasing him. And if it's happened, it surely isn't' the norm. That's in the movies.
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Old 11-06-2012, 08:56 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Very well put Aced it. Re-reading the posts, i need to clarify some things. This is not something I do EVERY time. Only the extreme where it a very close call and when you give the WTF hand gesture, then I get the finger or yelled at or they start being aggressive (slamming on brakes, swerving ect.). I always try to stay calm, but some people need the be repremanded for a lack of better word.

And on my last post, I want to clarify that I did not kill anyone (reads that way). In 2002, a guy tried to rob me at gunpoint one evening while I was leaving the store. We exchanged fire, me hitting him twice, he hitting me once. Police were not far away, and quickly got the guy. Turns out he was a convicted felon with warrants. Anyway, he got two 15 to life sentences and actually died in prison from lung cancer two years ago.

Now, that ***** scared the crap out of me and I realized I was dangerous to the public becaused I carried but wasn't proficient in shooting (I fired 5 shots at him). So I contacted some friends of mine (one a green beret, the other a state trooper) and got them to train me the right way. I now go to the local police gun range once a week to practice and have even taught my wife the correct way to use a weapon.

Anyway, I see there isn't much agreement about this and I'm done arguing. My and some other's ways may not be the "right" way, but it is what it is.
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Old 11-06-2012, 09:11 AM   #33 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Theja1 View Post
Very well put Aced it. Re-reading the posts, i need to clarify some things. This is not something I do EVERY time. Only the extreme where it a very close call and when you give the WTF hand gesture, then I get the finger or yelled at or they start being aggressive (slamming on brakes, swerving ect.). I always try to stay calm, but some people need the be repremanded for a lack of better word.

And on my last post, I want to clarify that I did not kill anyone (reads that way). In 2002, a guy tried to rob me at gunpoint one evening while I was leaving the store. We exchanged fire, me hitting him twice, he hitting me once. Police were not far away, and quickly got the guy. Turns out he was a convicted felon with warrants. Anyway, he got two 15 to life sentences and actually died in prison from lung cancer two years ago.

Now, that ***** scared the crap out of me and I realized I was dangerous to the public becaused I carried but wasn't proficient in shooting (I fired 5 shots at him). So I contacted some friends of mine (one a green beret, the other a state trooper) and got them to train me the right way. I now go to the local police gun range once a week to practice and have even taught my wife the correct way to use a weapon.

Anyway, I see there isn't much agreement about this and I'm done arguing. My and some other's ways may not be the "right" way, but it is what it is.
If a driver becomes aggressive with their vehicle using it with intent to harm you whether by hitting you or running you off the road, you have EVERY right to defend your life. But what everyone needs to consider is that this goes BOTH ways and we must all be prepared to deal with the consequences of the law no matter what side we were on.

I'm a LOT calmer in my 'older' age. I've done a lot of stupid things when I was younger. Thankfully, I made it to this point ... some do not, but very well could have. Words do not take lives, people do. Ride responsibly and as I tell my 17 year old son, DRIVE responsibly. And by all means, CARRY responsibly.

Also, thanks for the clarification.
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Old 11-06-2012, 01:43 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Geeeezz. you might also add that when someone tries to run you off the road - whether they see you or not - you have the right to get their attention. Sounds like some of you would prefer we just get hit or crashed so they can drive off merrily and have a nice day. When they're in arms reach sometimes the quicker reaction is to hit the vehicle rather than add a couple seconds for the horn. I run a video camera a lot; I could always take the footage to the police... attempted manslaughter, reckless driving, drunk driving, possibilities are endless. How would your day be then? As for the other, if you have time to show off your pretty little gun, you have more than enough time to get out of there.
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Old 11-06-2012, 02:04 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Geeeezz. you might also add that when someone tries to run you off the road - whether they see you or not - you have the right to get their attention. Sounds like some of you would prefer we just get hit or crashed so they can drive off merrily and have a nice day. When they're in arms reach sometimes the quicker reaction is to hit the vehicle rather than add a couple seconds for the horn. I run a video camera a lot; I could always take the footage to the police... attempted manslaughter, reckless driving, drunk driving, possibilities are endless. How would your day be then? As for the other, if you have time to show off your pretty little gun, you have more than enough time to get out of there.
In the following, I'm using the word "you" in the third person; it's not directed solely at the poster of the quote above, just merely adding to the conversation ...

If you are in a close situation while moving and have no other alternative or means of escape, yes a good idea if you are that close might be to bang on the other vehicle to get their attention. Actually, I take that back as a better idea would be to keep both hands on the bars, maintaining full control of your bike and seek an alternative exit.

An example would be slow moving traffic. Another somewhat related example that happened to me was turning right into a parking lot and not seeing a bicyclist in my right rear blind spot. Because I used my turn signal, he tapped my vehicle a few times which got my attention. No harm done, and we continued on. However, as a responsible motorcycle rider you should be aware of a situation like that before it happens and leave yourself room for escape. Use the S.E.E. approach - See, Evaluate, Execute or even the SIPDE approach - Scan, Identify, Predict, Decide, Execute.

For the most part in this thread the topic has revolved around intentional damage to the other vehicle, which then puts you at fault. Running a video camera is a good idea, but it will not help you come to a conclusion toward the right thing to do in a split second occurrence. Only your riding skills will do that. After a close call, it is up to your decision making process whether to escalate the situation with property damage, or move on. Were you aware that they purposefully were out to hurt/kill you? Or could they have just simply not have seen you? In the end, to me, a violent retaliation aimed at a half-assed resolution to a situation that "almost" happened is not acceptable.

By the way, and this is directed at you wcmla, I 100% agree with your last sentence.
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Old 11-06-2012, 03:53 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Close calls happen every day, no matter what you are driving. I have friends who are over the road drivers and they are constantly talking about motorists who for some reason or another fail to see them and do stupid thing. It's part of operating a motor vehicle on public roads. Just because you are on a motorcycle doesn't give you any fewer... or more rights. Often it is the offended party that was actually the cause of the close call.

I'll give you an example:

A couple of weeks ago I was at an intersection leaving work. I had a pretty good day at work followed by a good workout at the gym and was now heading home for a shower and cold beer. I was at a stop sign, signal on, ready to turn left, the cross traffic was unrestricted and had the right of way. I saw a motorcyclist coming from my right and he had his right turn signal on so I slowly eased out and made my left turn As I'm starting to accelerate, I hear a horn and the motorcyclist goes blasting by me on my left, mouthing some crap, flips me off, then takes off. I take off after him. I'm driving an F-350 dually with a V-10 in it. In less than a quarter mile I'm right on the bike, he panics and tries taking a turn too fast resulting in him and his bike going down and sliding for a bit. Bike is toast. I pull up to where he's getting up looking a little worse for wear and get out of my truck. He throws his hands up and starts blabbering about how he didn't mean nothin' 'bout' nothin' but I cut him off. I point to his signal... which somehow was still flashing and told him maybe next time if he's not going to turn right, he might want to turn off his signal. Point is… I wasn't in road rage. Sure, I was pissed, but I just wasn't going to stand for being flipped off by some jerk, especially when I hadn't did anything wrong. Another point is that the motorcyclist had ample opportunity to hit his brakes behind me. He didn't need to accelerate by me to avoid an accident. Was I in the wrong? Sure, maybe, some people might think so... I don't care. As someone said earlier in this thread "let people get away with stuff long enough and they'll keep on doing it" or something like that.

Bottom line is that operating a motor vehicle can be a hazardous endeavor at times. Motorcyclists don't get any special privileges. People make mistakes. I doubt anyone on here is important enough that others would intentionally try to hurt or kill them. If something happens and you choose to escalate the situation by making gestures or additional actions... be prepared for the consequences.
My .02 anyway.
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Old 11-06-2012, 04:28 PM   #37 (permalink)
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I was at a stop sign, signal on, ready to turn left, the cross traffic was unrestricted and had the right of way. I saw a motorcyclist coming from my right and he had his right turn signal on so I slowly eased out and made my left turn As I'm starting to accelerate, I hear a horn and the motorcyclist goes blasting by me on my left, mouthing some crap, flips me off, then takes off. I take off after him. I'm driving an F-350 dually with a V-10 in it. In less than a quarter mile I'm right on the bike, he panics and tries taking a turn too fast resulting in him and his bike going down and sliding for a bit. Bike is toast. I pull up to where he's getting up looking a little worse for wear and get out of my truck. He throws his hands up and starts blabbering about how he didn't mean nothin' 'bout' nothin' but I cut him off. I point to his signal... which somehow was still flashing and told him maybe next time if he's not going to turn right, he might want to turn off his signal. Point is… I wasn't in road rage. Sure, I was pissed, but I just wasn't going to stand for being flipped off by some jerk, especially when I hadn't did anything wrong. Another point is that the motorcyclist had ample opportunity to hit his brakes behind me. He didn't need to accelerate by me to avoid an accident. Was I in the wrong? Sure, maybe, some people might think so... I don't care. As someone said earlier in this thread "let people get away with stuff long enough and they'll keep on doing it" or something like that.
So, let me get this straight. You are in a huge F-350 dually, a m/c makes a mistake and almost takes himself out, flips you off, then you go chasing after him, and as a result of you chasing after him, YOU caused him to wreck.

You sir, are an ASSSHOLLLE, or more like your username, a squid!!!!! What you did is very much considered road rage and you deserve to get your teeth kicked in. I agree that the m/c rider had his faults too in this scenario, but taking your 4 ton vehichle chasing a m/c is outright stupid and careless. I would expect more from a fellow m/c rider.
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Old 11-06-2012, 04:46 PM   #38 (permalink)
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that happened to me was turning right into a parking lot and not seeing a bicyclist in my right rear blind spot. Because I used my turn signal, he tapped my vehicle a few times which got my attention. No harm done, and we continued on.
I've seen that done to bicycles, motorcycles & scooters but the drivers didn't use a turn signal & hopped around them to do it. I see your point. Oooops.

My earlier post about the car pulling into me - I saw it cross one lane but didn't know she was in mine until the bumper was right next to my leg and still coming forward & to the curb; 2 more feet she would have taken me out by the handlebars. I did the only thing I could do... and watched her wave as she turned the corner. Oh, I'm sure she didn't see me. I should have evaluated and thought more about it in the hospital. Maybe I should have apologized for being in her way huh?

That kind of thing happens far too often which is why I've taken to turning video on in town. Things happen every day which are "intentional". Its a motorcycle, he'll get out of the way. They can stop quick. I can claim blind spot. I don't like motorcycles, one cut me off once 20-yrs ago.

You have no room but react quickly. I'm not a weekend rider, this is my transportation. I ride like a little old man and obey everything which will do me no good if I get hit, but I have no pity for stupid riders and I'll continue to beat the odds & stay alive. I've driven stockcar & driven semi's, there's no sermon I don't know. When you're on a bike you notice little things & see things up close & first hand ... they look at you, smile, and then do something stupid & unexpected. They'll pass you on an empty road to immediately do a U-turn in front of you. You don't have the false sense of security you have in a vehicle, one mistake from anything can kill.

My first & only instinct is to get out safe, but if I'm forced into a situation and can scare the crap out of you while I get out - I'll do it. You don't have permission to put my life in danger. Anyone with a few hundred thousand 2-wheeled miles under their belt will know exactly what I'm saying.
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Old 11-06-2012, 06:42 PM   #39 (permalink)
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So, let me get this straight. You are in a huge F-350 dually, a m/c makes a mistake and almost takes himself out, flips you off, then you go chasing after him, and as a result of you chasing after him, YOU caused him to wreck.

You sir, are an ASSSHOLLLE, or more like your username, a squid!!!!! What you did is very much considered road rage and you deserve to get your teeth kicked in. I agree that the m/c rider had his faults too in this scenario, but taking your 4 ton vehichle chasing a m/c is outright stupid and careless. I would expect more from a fellow m/c rider.
So for the sake of conversation here, help me out with a couple of things: What does the size vehicle I'm driving have to do with it? Would it of been better if I was driving my old Mustang, 1/2 ton truck, wifes mini van or my bike? I didn't cause him to wreck. He out rode his abilities causing himself to wreck. I also don't feel I was being careless. All my vehicles are well maintained, I keep quality tires on them and I was wearing my seatbelt. Not being careless at all. Lastly, what does being a motorcycle rider have to do with it? Actually, as someone who has logged quite a few miles on two wheels, I'm probably more familiar than those who don't ride on what this guys options were. He didn't make any real mistake riding... his mistake was being a jerk and not willing to hang around and stand up for his actions.
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Old 11-06-2012, 09:56 PM   #40 (permalink)
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I'm following this thread and starting to believe that it's the morons on two wheels I have to be much more fearful of.
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