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Trouble in Harley-land?

14K views 169 replies 30 participants last post by  enforcer76 
#1 ·
Harley-Davidson Inc (HOG.N), facing falling motorcycle sales around the world, said on Tuesday it plans to streamline its operations, reorganize and reduce its workforce during the fourth quarter in a move that will cost the company $20 million to $25 million.

The motorcycle manufacturer cited continued slowed U.S. motorcycle industry growth as the main factor for weaker retail sales. Harley-Davidson did not give details on its reorganization plans nor initially say how many jobs may be impacted.
Harley-Davidson plans to reorganize, reduce workforce | Reuters

I don't care for the stigma that goes along with being a Harley rider, but at the same time I don't want to see HD fail either. I like that they are built in the U.S.A.
 
#2 ·
Harley-Davidson plans to reorganize, reduce workforce | Reuters



I don't care for the stigma that goes along with being a Harley rider, but at the same time I don't want to see HD fail either. I like that they are built in the U.S.A.


They won't fail. Downsizing is just part of business. It ebbs and flows...the economy just isn't quite strong enough to keep them at their current level. Plus Victory and Indian continue to take a small piece (but growing) part of the American made business.


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#52 ·
They won't fail. Downsizing is just part of business. It ebbs and flows...the economy just isn't quite strong enough to keep them at their current level. Plus Victory and Indian continue to take a small piece (but growing) part of the American made business.
Yup.

Disclaimer: the use of the word "yup" in his post under no situations or circumstances should be considered as an assent with Theegies point out of view.. as this will never happen!!!!
 
#7 ·
#4 ·
I do think that HD has to come up with some new stuff. I couldn't buy a new car that hasn't changed in style in 30 years.


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#6 ·
Shortly before we moved out here they built a new plant, I drove by but didn't get to go in but from the outside it looked great and all the news about it they showed the inside and how new and modern it was. Really nice plant but that was a while ago now. Sure looked like they had big plans. I even applied there for a maintenance job but got a different one before they called me. From people I talked with they really treated employees great.
 
#11 ·
It happens. The HD plant in York PA had big lay-offs several years ago. Then they grew again, and lay-offs seem to be coming again. I don't foresee a dark future for the company, they just need to get a handle on the new market and figure out how to actually market to the new generations. And what to market to them. Their core demographic targets are a contracting market (very different from a dying market) and they either contract with it, win business from other brands, or introduce products that will sell to a different demographics. But I think they will survive nicely.
 
#12 ·
Don't give a diddlyFlip what HD does or where.

In the past 6 months, have ridden 3 HD's....a 1200 Sportster, a Road King and an Ultra Classic.

Yes, I was proud for their 3 new owners, but I remain seriously drastically eternally underwhelmed.

Just want Brer @Theja1 to have job security, and a place to park his Victory outside the HD dealership.


-Gnarly

Ride safe. Share food. Mate often. Rinse. Repeat.
 
#15 ·
Here one pic of a 20 year old 1996 HD and a pic of a brand new 2016 HD. Can you tell me which is which? I think it's time for some style changes.










Hint:

The green one is the old one.


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#24 ·
I hadn`t opened this thread until this morning...


I`m interested in them shoes,
D


I`ll stick with our Ironheads...
I see no need to upgrade my HD ownership
 
#27 ·
I have to agree that this is as presented is all part of adjustment for the economic cycle.

The real problems at Harley Davidson:
Greed of shareholders.
The final EVO engine is/was better than the TwinCam.
They make too many, what are mostly, cosmetic variations on the basic designs, this bites them in production especially when volumes drop.
Failure to remember the real history of the Brand and the AMF years.
Actual competition in their niche market.

The do have a lot going for them.
Great dealer network.
Brand Recognition.
Loyal owners.
"History"
"Made in USA"
 
#30 ·
A good example of styling messing up a good looking bike is tha Valks. I saw a pic of a 2016 and almost puked!!!
 
#34 ·
A few months back I wanted into Rock and Roll Harley Davidson in Cleveland, OH. First time in a Harley dealership. I know some of the names of their bikes, like the Ultra Super Glide and the Fat Girl, but didn't know one from the other. They all look alike to me except that some have bags, others have windshields, some have windshields, fairings and saddlebags. I was greeted by a woman perhaps 45 years in age but she was trying to look 25. I told her I knew nothing about Harleys. She assumed I didn't ride. I explained that I did so she asked what brand of bike. I told her Triumph and she asked, I'm not $hi+ing you, "How do you spell that?". I asked her to tell me about the bikes. I learned about Willie G. footpegs, that some have built in navigation systems and how the saddlebags close. I still know nothing about the bikes. I saw tee shirts, beer glasses, etc, etc, etc. I saw only cruisers.

Yesterday I wandered into a BMW dealership. Same deal, first time. A friend has an R1200RT so I knew that much. The salesman proceeded to go into detail about the workings of several models (R Nine T, R1200Rt, and the R1200GS Adventure). Technical info on the suspensions, engines, fuel consumption, tire life, riding modes, and so forth. I saw lots of styles of bikes, everything but cruiser but I understand that there now is one or at least one in the works. An hour well-spent as I learned a bundle.

I still am not interested in either bike. Both expensive status symbols. Bikes of equal or better quality out there that do the same things at a lower cost. Yes I'm a cheapskate (I prefer thrifty).

I don't understand the hold that both of these companies have on their "followers".
 
#93 · (Edited)
A few months back I wanted into Rock and Roll Harley Davidson in Cleveland, OH. First time in a Harley dealership. I know some of the names of their bikes, like the Ultra Super Glide and the Fat Girl, but didn't know one from the other. They all look alike to me except that some have bags, others have windshields, some have windshields, fairings and saddlebags. I was greeted by a woman perhaps 45 years in age but she was trying to look 25. I told her I knew nothing about Harleys. She assumed I didn't ride. I explained that I did so she asked what brand of bike. I told her Triumph and she asked, I'm not $hi+ing you, "How do you spell that?". I asked her to tell me about the bikes. I learned about Willie G. footpegs, that some have built in navigation systems and how the saddlebags close. I still know nothing about the bikes. I saw tee shirts, beer glasses, etc, etc, etc. I saw only cruisers.

Yesterday I wandered into a BMW dealership. Same deal, first time. A friend has an R1200RT so I knew that much. The salesman proceeded to go into detail about the workings of several models (R Nine T, R1200Rt, and the R1200GS Adventure). Technical info on the suspensions, engines, fuel consumption, tire life, riding modes, and so forth. I saw lots of styles of bikes, everything but cruiser but I understand that there now is one or at least one in the works. An hour well-spent as I learned a bundle.

I still am not interested in either bike. Both expensive status symbols. Bikes of equal or better quality out there that do the same things at a lower cost. Yes I'm a cheapskate (I prefer thrifty).

I don't understand the hold that both of these companies have on their "followers"
.
Harleys are not status symbols around here. Maybe the CVOs for those in the know. But Harley is past the Status Symbol arena for a $20K+ bike . One could say then a Gold Wing is a status symbol. Even the BMW is not a status symbol because most people have no idea what it is.No one would recognize a $35,000 Ducati here either, Plus 3 of 4 bikes here on the road are harleys and I know why........

People used to (and still do) wonder why anyone would buy a Harley. I can tell you parts are a lot cheaper and there are many aftermarket engine parts in many many cases even non wrenchers like me can do a LOT on the bike. It's almost modular ... Every drivetrain part can be bought from an aftermarket company from Carbs.pistons, jugs, Most electrical.

Now I know people will say metrics just don't need as much service which is more dependant on miles than anything. I took my V Star 1300 in for 20K service cost was $900. I did not leave them the bike because the SM would not call Yamaha on a clutch problem Yamaha was replacing.

But that's not the reason Harleys are not "Status Symbols" here. .

I bought Harley because there was literally no other local choice. Either Harley or the big Japanese four sold at a rip off dealership that has little to no aftermarket support and $100 labor for techs that work on four brands of bikes and their sub models, Yamaha Waverunners, Polaris Quads. Yamaha Boats, The Can AM, on and on......... four techs not knowing how to work on ALL of this stuff with a huge turnover, likely because they cannot make money in hours. Not knowing the machines they cannot fix using the rate book.

So things take longer than they should because the book hours are less than they spend with one eye in a shop manual even for the simplest things, and guess who has to pay for the additional hours?

The social aspect of HD is a nicety as well as the Heritage of the brand., I have never owned a brand with such a rabid interest and pride in their ride (even just sitting in the garage), It's like a club. Hard to explain. There is "something different" regarding Harley ownership and the others,

People compare ALL V Twins to Harleys. Most can not pick the Harley out of a bike lineup. I would bet Victory owners bikes get mistaken for Harleys now and then. They HAVE a different design. more angles and pointy parts and HUGE Floor boards LOL

I won't own a bike in an area where I have only ONE place to go for service. I prefer the independent shops and in fact I have a guy who I have known since I bought my first Harley in Myrtle beach who I trust to work on my bikes. 35 year veteran of only Harleys all pierced and tattooed up. He won;t buy an EFI Harley.....in fact he rides a Victory he has been trying to sell for the last three years, He wants to build a Sportster. He bought the Victory because he had a falling out with the local HD Boutique and quit to open his own shop.

The Social aspect is kinda nice as well. Victory here does not offer the same experience and service. But they have nice bikes I almost bought a used 8 ball but after researching the dealership I balked. Having a knowledgeable sales force and techs who have been wrenching these bikes for 30 years know what they are doing.

Plus I can actually replace a lot of parts on my bike from rectifiers to Ignition coils, Carb is easy to setup. In My Opinion the Sportster is the best bike Harley makes..........the M8 notwithstanding.

I have watches that cost far more than my bike.....(Thanks to the wife.) Another hobby I can't let go of.
 
#35 · (Edited)
Now days most people would prefer spending half the amount for a, pardon the truth, superior bike like a Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki or Kawasaki. Personally, I would never spend anywhere close to $20k for any motorcycle, but people still do just for the name. There's not as much stigma today with riding a "Jap" bike, so alot more people get them. I mean, $8-9k for a new Honda versus what, $17-20k for a new Harley? Excluding the Sportster, it's the only cool HD anyway.

Gee, I wonder why they are having money issues?
 
#38 ·
Personally, I would never spend anywhere close to $20k for any motorcycle, but people still do just for the name.

I did, and it wasn't for "the name". As a avid biker, and owner of Honda's, Harley's, Yamaha's, Suzuki's and now a Victory, I can honestly say "you get what you pay for".

So "just for the name"? Nah, but good try.



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#36 ·
I would hate to see Harley go down or out for obvious reasons.

I have always liked the Harley bikes, my favorite has always been the Dyna Wide Glide. There is just something about Harley bikes that no other bike has. Y'all dont take me wrong, I love my Phantom!!!>:) After quite a bit of thought about what they have that no other bike has I can only come up with one thing,,,That motor!, or motor design actually. Most all of us have a V-twin and almost all bike manufacturers are building at least one model but none sound or look like the Harley big twin. I dont know why, bank angle or firing timing or something else, Never could get someone to explain it to me. The mechanical parts have that "old" look to them,,,they look crude and to me that is how I like mechanical things to look. Streamlined and curvy just dont do it.

I have always wanted a DWG and I am sure that if I wanted one bad enough I could have saved for one but life gets in the way most of the time. Maybe someday before it would need a trike kit. For now I am more than happy to be riding my Phantom,,,I love it, I have my knees, and the rest of me riding in the wind again!>:)

I just like to ride,,,if I meet and get to talk to someone who rides a Harley, that is great. Or a Victory, Indian, Suzuki,,,,,heck I dont care. We all ride on two, sometimes three wheels (as long as the single wheel is in the front) and that is what is important!!!:grin2::grin2:
 
#37 · (Edited)
Don't really care to see any American company go under, but there IS something about re-structuring that can bring back a company's focus. I can attest that today's market isn't as "balloon-ish" as it once was about as much as anybody. And, several close family members ride H-Ds. When we're riding, we mostly go to H-D dealers and every once in a rare while, we'll stop by a non-H-D dealership. I think there are a couple of reasons for this-- the sheer number of H-D dealers gives us a destination to ride to. I mean, what other dealership has a soda fountain, cookies, popcorn and a cookout on most any weekend? And, what other dealerships sell the same amount of shirts, coats, hats, etc, as well as parts for the bike? H-D does have a lot to offer those who ride the brand. I don't, so I'm not interested in the wares. One thing that turns me off almost instantly is when a bandana-ed, tatted-up, Count look-alike with a chain-driven wallet and a belt-driven bike tries to welcome me into the family. I don't feel a deep-seated need to belong, I just like the bike!

So far as the bikes are concerned, I've rode Street Glides, Sportsters and Ultras. Maybe its because I'm used to my Aero and ACE, but I'm always happy to ride home on my trusty Hondas. I find the new Indians more ergonomically pleasing, but as many have said, they're pricy, and my Hondas are PAID for!

Now, if H-D went REALLY retro, beyond the steampunk stereotypes, it'd tear at my heart strings somethin' fierce! Was looking at an ol' springer that was modded to look like a pan head and that was the first bike in a LONG time that made me consider a payment. Of course, it was used and no one at H-D except the local dealer cared how I felt.

I'm clearly not a normal "buy a bunch of stuff and throw it on your bike" kind of guy. That's what makes the hobby great, diversity. Wouldn't it be great if we allowed for that? !!!! :grin2:
 

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#45 ·
I think my $500 ACE is superior to any Harley just for the fact it runs and I got it so cheap. :)

Plus, I've just never cared for Harley's. I know alot of people like them, but I honestly don't, and it's not only because of how much they cost. Some Victory's are kinda okay to me, except for the price. The 8-ball is a little cool. Only thing is, I'm surprisingly one of those people that absolutely cannot stand how an HD sounds. I know that's their "signature", but to me they just sound like total crap, like they're about to die. I'm more of a quiet bike kind of guy though. Anyway, ride safe bud.
 
#54 ·
I think [/my $500 ACE is superior to any Harley just for the fact it runs and I got it so cheap. :)

Well, let's meet up and ride. Both of will go solo, with 200 lbs of gear, run about 700 to 900 miles a day, 200 miles between stops, both listening to satellite radio, and set our cruise control when at cruising speed.

If that's too much for you, I have a trailer I can tow behind mine to help out.

I mean, yours runs and was cheap so you should have no issues with any of that.



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#47 ·
The very thing a lot of people rag on Harley for is that they stick with that air cooled, old fashioned design. Well, the have to. If they deviate too much the market starts railing against them. Their loyal customer base is both blessing and curse. When the V-Rod came out the cry was, "THAT's not a Harley!" So Harley has done little innovations and upgrades in design in more hidden ways.

That customer base is shrinking in some ways, but is still strong enough in others to hold HD to the fire. I applaud HD for coming out with the liquid cooled 500 and 750. Again you hear the cry from the traditionalist. What those naysayers are either not accepting or paying attention to is that the target market is one that has been wanting something different. The target for those bikes are the urban riders. Those people who will be riding their bikes everyday in urban environments more than getting out of town for long rides. They want and need quick handling, good economy, a level of comfort in the commute, and it it's a bit stylish and says Harley Davidson on the tank, that's a nice touch. I imagine those same bikes would also be a lot of fun winding through the Three Twisted Sisters in the Hill Country here. I know my Shadow Aero 750 was.

However, when someone like HD drops "different" type bikes on the market and branches out a little they run the risk of diluting their brand recognition. You think Harley Davidson you think air cooled, HAWGS! Little hawgs or big hawgs. You think HD and water cooled, cafe racer, anything different doesn't really come to mind. So again, in a lot of ways HD is sort of trapped by it's own glory and mystique. The customers and even those who aren't, but have this ideal of what Harley is have a kind of persistent insistence that Harley Davidson stick to what everyone else thinks a Harley should be.

I wonder how HD would have evolved and what innovations they would have come up with if AMF hadn't bought them and cancelled the NOVA project.

Harley Davidson V4 Nova

At the time the Shovelhead’s replacement was being designed (the engine that eventually became the Evolution V-Twin), another engine and motorcycle combination was in the works. The Nova project was to be a smaller displacement family of high tech water cooled engines in V-Twin, V4 and V6 configurations. The cylinder sizes of either 200cc or 250cc gave engine size options ranging from a 400cc V-Twin to a 1500cc V6, and lots of interchangeable parts. The heads were 2 valve overhead cam with the potential for 4 valves at a later time.

Although the project had advanced to where they had 30 engines and 12 running motorcycles, it was never produced, a casualty of the AMF years.
 
#50 ·
Maybe not.. Harley is associated purely with motorcycles.. Honda.. ??? ...Born to cut grass? Born to cage-it? Born to blow snow? Born to what? ..

If Honda were associated purely with MCs, then I'm sure there would be a few more Honda tats to be seen.

Honda has a huge (and loyal) customer base.. Worldwide, a much larger loyal customer base than HD (at a reasonable guess) ..Hell, I'm pretty sure you'll find plenty of Harley riders caging-it in a CRV..
 
#81 ·
Good Grief!!!,,,I take one day to watch football and miss all the fun.:frown2:

This is such a great place to be:smile2:,,,It is the first forum that I have joined. I have looked at others about various subjects and they all were the same,,,either not much traffic or a couple members ruled the forum.:frown2: The brotherhood on this forum is great and I feel it is where I belong. We do disagree on things but we keep it civil and concentrate on what we all agree on,,,We love to ride on two wheels!!!>:)

Last year when @Shadowangel57 and I first started talking about getting back into riding we talked through a lot of different avenue's that were available to us. It boiled down to two choices,,,1= pay 20k for one bike for us both to ride or 2= get two smaller bikes. The first choice would not work since neither of us wants to ride, we both want to drive!:smile2: She asked me what bikes we should look at,,,I have always rode Suzuki's in the past and liked the bikes but I did not like what they did to the Intruders,,,Knowing of Honda's reliability in the past and that I knew there was a dealer in Chattanooga that sold the bikes cheaper than anywhere in the southeast I said that we should look at the Honda's.

That weekend we found the dealers website and she started looking at the bikes. She fell in love with the AERO and then showed me a pic of the Phantom,,,We both fell in love with those bikes that day. We compared prices with other dealers and when we got the $$$ we went to Chattanooga and bought the two Honda's:grin2: and have been happy with them.

We could have purchased bikes of another brand but being out of the hobby/way of life for so long we went with what we knew about bikes from 15-20 years ago.

Will there be different bikes in our future?,,,I am sure there will be,,,we are not getting younger and both have health issues. I am sure that we will eventually end up on a trike and take turns driving,,,Valk, Wing, HD, Victory,,,Dunno???:surprise: But we will be riding and on this forum keeping up with friends and making new ones.

Y'all are a great bunch!!!0:)
 
#82 ·
Amen.. keeping the knees in the breeze is first and foremost
 
#87 ·
Not so sure I'd agree with HD being behind Victory anymore. At least, not with the release of their Milwaukee-Eight. With HD's four valves per head and a single cam engine, I think they have a pretty strong motor going into their new bikes. From what I've read, it's also predicted to be more reliable than the outgoing 103/110.

As for a Honda, since they killed off the VTX 1300/1800's, I wouldn't consider anything new from their current line up. Their current offerings of cruisers and standard bike are not very exciting. I've always been puzzled how the new Fury/Stateline/Sabre fuel injected 1300's were somehow slower than the old carbureted VTX 1300's. If I were looking to buy a new cruiser today, I'd be considering a Sportster 48, Dyna Street Bob, Road King or Victory Octane.
 
#88 ·
...As for a Honda, since they killed off the VTX 1300/1800's, I wouldn't consider anything new from their current line up. Their current offerings of cruisers and standard bike are not very exciting. I've always been puzzled how the new Fury/Stateline/Sabre fuel injected 1300's were somehow slower than the old carbureted VTX 1300's..
That poses a good question in itself.. Why do all of the newer Honda cruisers seem detuned to under-perform? There's no real explanation for it, other than adhering to a more stringent international environmental code across the board; whereas other manufacturers, like Harley, are tuning bikes to each country's EPA regs.. But, even then, that doesn't really explain it.

To reduce wear for better reliability? Doesn't seem to explain it entirely either..

Would have loved to have seen a new 11-or-1300 Aero. But none of the newer cruiser designs do anything for me.. The new CTX line - I know Dave likes his - but they don't do anything for me personally.

I went in to sit on a ST1300 a while back, "Sorry, they don't make those anymore. They make a version for Law Enforcement. but, unless you are representing a police department,"...

The CTX was supposed to replace the ST.

Don't see it myself.

Hmmm.. I guess that might be one of the downsides, when you have a manufacturer who does it all / everywhere.. They build products to satisfy the more profitable markets for a particular product based on what an array of different cultures want, and, could be, they make those products jump through the hoops of the most stringent of environmental regulations.

Prioritizing international markets and trying to please all people - everywhere.. This Might explain the NM4 :D ... I sat on one of those, just to be able to say I did.. "Not-Good.." Something seemed very wrong with the seating position and foot placement on that bike.. No Bueno! The guy at the store said if I bought a new Goldwing he'd throw the NM4 in, for free :D .. I guess he was having a hard time getting rid of it!
 
#104 ·
All the Harley baggers just look pretty blah to me. To me, they all look the same and not much to look at. I do like the look of the newer sportys though. A lot. Like @Stranger 's


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