Help me finish this year long rebuild, huge starting issue!

[tycrazyjohn]

Alright the time has finally come. I'm a new member and this is my first real post (my three intro posts explain a bit more). This is going to be a really really long read, but I feel to fully understand the problem I've got to explain how I got to this point. If you want to jump right to the issue it'll be it's own section at the bottom...

How I got this old Shadow...
Basically I have an uncle who is a farmer up in Minnesota (I'm in Arkansas) and he is a casual motorcycle rider at best. Around 2005 he had a mini mid-life crisis and bought a 1985 Shadow 700. He only put about 4,000 miles on it in seven years, bringing the total to roughly 11,000. I love the guy, but his usual mode of thinking is "don't fix it unless it won't run". So basically nothing gets the proper maintenance it needs, this bike being no exception. It did a lot of sitting and little else. Fast forward to spring of 2011, he brings it out for the season and it constantly overheats. He decides to buy a Harley and left the Shadow in the shed. I'll save you the family details but he ended up offering it to me, and said I could just take it for free if I hauled it down here. So the last week of May of 2011 I drove up there and got it.

How I started..
Well when I went up there to get it he had to bump start it while he towed it with a pickup, but he got it to start on the first try, drove it up the road and into the back of the truck. Once I got it here my buddy and I couldn't get it to bump start, so we started with the basics to get it into storage. Charged the battery, drained the gas and put fresh gas in, sprayed a little starting fluid down the intake, and what do you know with a little convincing she coughed to life. It wouldn't idle without stalling so we got it to start, took off and drove it into the storage unit where I was going to work on it.
Now don't judge me too much for what I decided to do with it, I made a careless mistake and didn't do what my mechanical experience had taught me. All my uncle said was "it doesn't have as much power as it used to" and "it overheats very quickly" and that "no shop wanted to touch it because it needed to be rebuilt". I didn't do any of the checks I should have (compression test, fluid checks, plugs, etc...) and proceeded with the mindset of rebuilding it. I figured I wanted to keep this thing running for a long time and not just make it run for now. I have never rebuilt an engine this old, or even one with a V design, so I didn't know what I was getting into when I started. Turns out the plugs were shot, it had less than half the oil it needed, and the cooling system contained about a half a pint of mud. I should have stuck with a tune-up and gone from there, but I guess this lesson I just had to learn the hard way.

The Rebuild...
Now for the important part. It's been almost a year and I'm still not done, needless to say the engine is finally put back together and on the bike. However I hit several road blocks along the way, some of which might be why I'm having the starting issue. Dis-assembly wasn't too bad, only a few things I had to learn there. However I made another foolish mistake and didn't start searching for parts until I got the cylinders off (my thought was to check and see what I needed as I tore it down and then look for them all at once). I had no idea the scarcity of parts for this bike. I got a full gasket set no problem, however piston rings were impossible. I called every machine shop and local bike shop around, made several calls to Honda shops scattered across the country, had the rings put on a locator with no luck, even called a few manufacturing companies to see if I could get some made. Nope, my only option would have been to bore out the cylinders and get new pistons and rings. I have been working out of a storage unit with no power so I would have had to pay to get this done, something I simply did not have the money for. I decided to use the old rings and hope for the best, not the smartest idea, I know. The first time I tried to put the cylinders on I bent the bottom ring on the rear cylinder (the spacer ring below the oil ring). I managed to bend it back to being almost perfect (I have pictures if anyone is curious) and managed to get it back on with no problem. Then the valve train gave me a few months headache...first I had to learn how to set the rocker arm shafts in the right place with the assist springs, then the first time it was completely re-assembled it was out of time and I ended up bending an exhaust valve. Out came the engine again, the valve was replaced (a machine shop did a full valve job too) and the timing was fixed (I triple checked) and the bike was fully reassembled.

Here's my issue that I need help with...
One cold night in January I finally got to the point of trying to start it. I had two issues, one was that it wouldn't run without starting spray. (I suppose this might still be a problem, I had the carbs cleaned, then the body broke, bought a new set, cleaned them, but haven't had a chance to test them because of my other problem). The second issue is why I need everyone's help. When I pressed the starter button, the engine made a god awful sound. It would whirrr for a bit and then do a massive clunck. Tried it again and the starter just spun but the engine didn't crank. Then with a lot of starting spray it fired up the second I pressed the button. After that it made a worse noise and sounded like something was "stuck" or hanging up. Ever since then the starter/engine makes this horrid sound and isn't getting any better. It'll start after a few tries, but I don't want to cause any more damage to whatever is wrong. Here's a link to a video with the sound (the video doesn't show much, it was just to record the sound). PLEASE listen...

1985 Shadow 700 Starting Noise - YouTube

1985 Shadow 700 Starting Noise - YouTube

Now from what I've gathered so far is that it is probably an issue with the starting system. I'm really hoping so and that it isn't something within the engine. When the engine was out of the bike, I did a lot of cleaning to the outside (covered in dirt and filth) and I wanted to remove the starter to get underneath it. I loosened the bolts and tried to pop it out without removing the alternator cover with no success. I didn't want to press my luck so I pushed it back in and re-installed the bolts. So here's what I think it could be...

1.) The starter didn't get pushed back in all the way
2.) Either of the two connecting gears could have got miss aligned or damaged teeth
3.) The starter clutch is wore out
4.) The stater motor finally gave out
4.) Another starting component died while sitting for another year (solenoid?)

I really need to get your guys expert opinion on how to diagnose this. My plan is to take off the alternator cover and try to start the bike and see if I notice anything. If not I'll have to remove the flywheel and inspect the starter clutch. However I really don't know what it is supposed to look like so I'm not sure how to tell if it is bad or not.

So everyone please lay it on me, how should I figure this out...
What should I look for?
What tests should I do?
How can I know if the clutch is worn if I have to get to that point?

I haven't got to ride for a few years after I lost my last bike and this Shadow is my ticket to finally returning to two wheels and being happy again, so please any advice you can give me...I'm listening.

[nraluke]

Heard the starter clutch kick out on the first 2 cranks but that i don't think that is the problem. Older bike electrical parts get corroded. I'd charge the battery and check it's voltage, unplug every electrical connection that i could find and clean them with electrical contact cleaner and check where battery ground connects to bike frame or motor and clean it well and if it connects to motor then run a second ground to frame and go from there.

[Xmigo]

Agree with everything luke said, especially the ground wire (I always forget to check the ground).
Have you checked for good spark yet? Since you said you had to use starter spray my first thought would be carbs, but I'd check for good spark first then work your way back.

'97 Spirit 1100

[93gc40]

STOP TRYING TO START THE MOTOR. REMOVE the BATTERY and spark plugs, if you can't resist the button.
Until you find and fix the clunk, all motor rotation is to be done by HAND. If you are lucky it will just be the starter gears or clutch. they do tend to fall apart during engine assembly. By the sound of your story, I betting something got miss installed or just slipped.

[tycrazyjohn]

Alright that all sounds good...I definitely need to clean all of the connectors. When you say run a second ground wire, do you mean do it straight from the battery to the frame? What kills me is that the starter functioned fine before the rebuild, so I figured something went wrong. I checked the battery when I started and I've always kept it charged and when I try to start the bike it's always hooked up to a car battery for extra juice. The plugs are brand new, and they have good spark. When I took this video the carbs hadn't been cleaned, that's why it was needing starter fluid. Thanks for the replies!!!

[John Hopkins]

Originally Posted by 93gc40

STOP TRYING TO START THE MOTOR. REMOVE the BATTERY and spark plugs, if you can't resist the button.
Until you find and fix the clunk, all motor rotation is to be done by HAND. If you are lucky it will just be the starter gears or clutch. they do tend to fall apart during engine assembly. By the sound of your story, I betting something got miss installed or just slipped.

I have to go along with this..

John.

[tycrazyjohn]

Well I didn't plan on trying to start the bike again except for trying to see if I could watch the starter spin with the alternator cover off. Do you think it would be okay for that? Once I get in there how can I tell what's out of place? The manual isn't very descriptive in this area...

[jimnfor]

I would lean towards the starter being a problem. Check coil(s), plugs, wires etc.
The battery sounds weak towards the end of the video. If the battery isn't 100% it will have trouble starting, especially during this trial and error phase.

[tycrazyjohn]

Well if anyone's still willing to help I finally have an update. I got the alternator cover off and got a closer look at the issue. When I move the stater gear by hand it spins freely in one direction and locks on to the crankshaft in the other. But then I hit the starter button and watched, sometimes it'll work fine then sometime it'll spin without locking on. Now I was wondering if this could still be caused by a dying starter motor or a weak battery? Or is the starter clutch simply done for.

[superdiver]

OK, keep in mind this post is from a bike newbie. I had a similar problem with redoing a marine outboard for one of my skiffs... every thing turned over correctly but the starter gears were not engaging the other gears to turn the engine over (sorry for the horrible use of terms, but I am self taught by the school of hard knocks). Anyway, the starter would spin and spin, but not engage. Following my rule of always going back the the point of working vs not working and checking the most simple stupid things as those are usually the cause since we just skim over them as we do them, i somehow managed to connect the battery power OPPOSITE! (did I mention i am an idiot???) I would not have thought it possible to do that, much less that the starter would even work... But it did and it was turning backwards... I reversed the power connections and it has worked perfect ever since.. i am surprised i didnt ruin it... but it didnt..

Not sure if thats the same problem, but it sounds similar...