ethenol

[klkarnes]

I was in a local shop today and noticed a sign that he had up. "Do to the amount of ethenol in fuels I will no longer be able to warranty carb work." The notice went on to say that one should run there bikes every two or three days and if not they should treat the fuel. Is there any truth to this? If so, what major brands do not use ethenol, I know that is should be posted at the pump.

[blonodmc]

most premium dos'nt have ethenol but soem do , i do beleive that shell isnt one of them nor is mobile premium??? look at the pump like you noted

[blonodmc]

ps too add. most gas has had some amount of ethenol for 20 year i can rember but as low as 5% standard is 10% i think?? but i have heard of the more budget stations using as high as 15-20% i would defeinatly avoid these places

[callmeal]

Originally Posted by klkarnes

"Do to the amount of ethenol in fuels I will no longer be able to warranty carb work."

Sounds to me like an excuse to not stand behind their work. All cars in the U.S. made after 1985 are made to run on E-10. Motorcycles most likely had the same requirements. I have never had a problem with E-10 in any of my bikes. My 85 Shadow has been running on E-10 for a long time now.

If you really feel the need to buy E-zero, get a tester. Or you could do about the same thing with a tall thin glass jar or tube. Add a small amount of water and make a mark at the water line. Add gas to be tested and shake it up; let it settle a few minutes. If the water line goes up, the gas contains alcohol.

http://www.fuel-testers.com/

http://www.fuel-testers.com/product_gas_alcohol.html

http://www.fuel-testers.com/ethanol_...ms_damage.html

[Shadow Rookie]

If I'm not mistaken, my MOM specifically said that ethanol was OK to burn - not sure why any reputable shop would have an issue.

[tubes_rock]

The problem with Ethanol is not the ethanol itself. It's a "feature" of the ethanol. My 1986 VT700 MOM says that it will take E10 just fine. Not any more than 10%, but up to that and it will by fine.

The problem with ethanol is that it is hygroscopic. It absorbs water. (This is the theory behind why dry-gas works.) It's also demonstrated by how the fuel tester that callmeal described works. A lesser fuel station (any fuel station for what it matters) will have a small amount of water in their tanks. With pure gas, the water sits at the bottom, below the pickup tube, so you don't get it in your vehicle. Ethanol allows the water to mix into it readily, and when you buy fuel, you're buying the water too. Not only does it kill the performance, but it also causes nasty reactions between the aluminum and brass parts in a carburetor. It literally eats them up from the inside out.

As a side-note: Never fill up at a fuel station that is getting a delivery of fuel. Not your bike, not your car, not your lawnmower! When they dump that fuel into the underground tanks, it stirs up all of the sediment, water and other crud in there, and when you fill up, you get an expensive load of sludge in your tank. I've ruined a few fuel filters getting fuel like this, and things without good filters...forget it. A lot of modern cars have integrated "lifetime" fuel filters, and if they get plugged by the gunk in this fuel, it's gonna cost you!

It's not that ethanol is bad, it's just that it makes it much easier to get water into your bike.

--Justin

[callmeal]

Originally Posted by tubes_rock

As a side-note: Never fill up at a fuel station that is getting a delivery of fuel. Not your bike, not your car, not your lawnmower! When they dump that fuel into the underground tanks, it stirs up all of the sediment, water and other crud in there, and when you fill up, you get an expensive load of sludge in your tank.

Yeah, I never did like to buy gas while a delivery truck was at the station, even before ethanol became common.

Buying gas while a truck is there presents another possibility most people don’t think about. Fuel trailers usually have four or more compartments. At the truck loading terminal, straight ethanol is loaded into only one compartment. If a load of gasoline is 8500 gallons, 850 gallons of ethanol is loaded into one compartment only, 7650 gallons of gasoline is added to make up the load. Sometimes the truck gets the gasoline first and drives to another location for the ethanol, but the ethanol always goes into only one compartment. The gasoline and ethanol are mixed when the truck unloads at the gas station. This is called “splash blending”. If you are buying fuel when a truck is unloading, you could get more than 10 percent ethanol if the driver opens that compartment first.

You don’t need to worry about the other gasoline additives that are added at the loading terminal, they are “match blended” and should always be the correct proportion.
Al

[landon]

Here in Portland the gas stations are required to sell 10% during the winter to help with maintaining our air quality by the DEQ (Dept. of Environmental Quality), I think they may sell it all year round now (I quit paying attention to it after my car ran fine after a winter's worth of the stuff).

I think what the mechanic was trying to say was that E. eats up the rubber seals in the carbs if you let it sit in the carb too long, and therefore there is nothing he can do about it and won't warranty the carbs any longer.

Another subject...

I work in the Tech Support Dept. for the Kroger Corp. our gas stations have a "black box" in the back that constantly monitors the holding tanks for pressure drops in the lines (leaks) and water in the tanks, if the water level gets too high it trips an alarm and shuts down all the pumps, at that point we have to dispatch a field tech to fix the problem.

Our pumps also have fuel filters built into the individual pumps that should stop any crud from getting into your gas tanks.

[litnin]

Originally Posted by landon

I think what the mechanic was trying to say was that E. eats up the rubber seals in the carbs if you let it sit in the carb too long, and therefore there is nothing he can do about it and won't warranty the carbs any longer.

That's not an issue anymore. Back in the 70's, there were problems
with seals being affected by the fuel.
Since the introduction of Nitrile rubber, that isn't an issue.
It's highly resistant to chemicals and doesn't swell like older rubber seals.

The only problem with ethanol, like tubes stated was the characteristic
of absorbing water.
In and of itself, that's not even bad. It's hygroscopic, meaning that it
absorbs or encapsulates the water. This is actually a chemical change once
absorbed... it's no longer water. It can be run through the engine with no
ill effects. However, due the alteration of the chemical, it doesn't
produce the same power output as it would without the moisture content.
The E10 and E85 have much less BTU output than gasoline and power
is slightly diminished. Add moisture to the mix and it just compounds
the power loss. The more moisture, the more power loss.
The amount isn't drastic and generally not noticeable to the average person, but it can be noticeable in some instances
This usually only really affects fuel mileage.... it will drop slightly.

E10 will work fine in just about any vehicle made after about 1980 or so.

[herbyreed]

Originally Posted by tubes_rock

The problem with Ethanol is not the ethanol itself. It's a "feature" of the ethanol. My 1986 VT700 MOM says that it will take E10 just fine. Not any more than 10%, but up to that and it will by fine.

The problem with ethanol is that it is hygroscopic. It absorbs water. (This is the theory behind why dry-gas works.) It's also demonstrated by how the fuel tester that callmeal described works. A lesser fuel station (any fuel station for what it matters) will have a small amount of water in their tanks. With pure gas, the water sits at the bottom, below the pickup tube, so you don't get it in your vehicle. Ethanol allows the water to mix into it readily, and when you buy fuel, you're buying the water too. Not only does it kill the performance, but it also causes nasty reactions between the aluminum and brass parts in a carburetor. It literally eats them up from the inside out.

As a side-note: Never fill up at a fuel station that is getting a delivery of fuel. Not your bike, not your car, not your lawnmower! When they dump that fuel into the underground tanks, it stirs up all of the sediment, water and other crud in there, and when you fill up, you get an expensive load of sludge in your tank. I've ruined a few fuel filters getting fuel like this, and things without good filters...forget it. A lot of modern cars have integrated "lifetime" fuel filters, and if they get plugged by the gunk in this fuel, it's gonna cost you!

It's not that ethanol is bad, it's just that it makes it much easier to get water into your bike.

--Justin

My understanding of water and alcohol always was that ethanol did not absorb water as well as methanol and isopropyl alcohol do. That is why "dry gas" is always methanol or isopropyl alcohol, never ethanol. Probably ethanol does absorb some water. But absorbing the water is a good thing, not a bad thing, because the water becomes part of the fuel and is burned off in the cylinder. If there is water in your gas tank it is going to get into your carbs where it could cause problems because it can sit in the bottom of the carb bowls and be taken into the cylinder as pure water. You can't depend on it staying at the bottom of the tank and not getting into the carbs. The only way that could happen is if you never use your reserve and even then is is doubtful because there will be some mixing into the rest of the tank, particularly when you fill up - and some water could be taken into the pickup tube before it settles out again.