White slime on dipstick returns--please beat this dead horse - Page 4 - Honda Shadow Forums : Shadow Motorcycle Forum

iavlx · 01-27-2009, 07:56 AM

jon,i think at this point you should try the least expensive thing first.get some oil system cleaner,follow the directions on the bottle then replace your oil and filter.run the bike for awhile and see if the problem comes back.if it does it's time to start toubleshooting and find out where the problem is.it could be a head gasket,cracked head or cylinder or i'm not sure but maybe leaking past a seal or o ring on the back side of the water pump. is the bike running ok,do the plugs all look the same.sometime when water gets in a cylinder the spark plug will look like it's steam cleaned.if you can get a cylinder leakdown tester and put air pressure in your cylinders you might hear it leak or see bubbles in your radiator.let me know what you find out.

dave

jon lewis · 01-27-2009, 01:30 PM

Dave: Yes, I'm close to taking it to a pro for some troubleshooting. Problem in my mind is that it seems that all the tests (leak down, flourescent dye, etc.) will not pinpoint where the problem is. If it is a crack in the head, cylinder, headgasket or some seal/ o-ring on the back of the water pump air will qppear in the radiator waterw/all tests, correct?

I will first try the oil system cleaner and an oil change. Jon

Big John · 01-27-2009, 01:59 PM

The most critical piece of info that you need to find out first is whether or not it is coming from your coolant system or not. I would not waste any more oil till you found that out. Many of these tests mentioned would cost you less than a couple of oil changes and give you more tangible results without putting your engine at risk for bearing damage. Give a call to one of the independent local motorcycle shops and see if they have the equipment to test it. Otherwise as I mentioned in another post you can easily make your own test fixture by adding a schoder valve and a pressure guage to your system (you can splice into a hose and get creative) and pumping it up with a bike pump and seeing if it lets down. You can sometimes even hear a leak. I found one particulaly difficult leak in a toyota cylinder head, where it was leaking from a water port in the head to an intake runner, that way. It just seems like a waste to me to keep changing the oil and being wishfull that the problem goes away. A test can tell you for sure and any coolant leak into the engine is going to require some engine disasembly. I would find out for sure it is even a coolant leak before you worry about trying to pinpoint it. That is the systematic method for diagnosing water in the oil. First is it coolant? If yes, then proceede to engine component removal to determine where the breach is, starting with any location a gasket is seperating coolant and oil passages like head gaskets or as mentioned, in some cases there are water pumps that will share a passage, or like the GSXR with freeze plugs under the valve cover. You start with the easiest to check and work your way down to posible issues with the block untill you find it.

jon lewis · 01-27-2009, 05:15 PM

Yes BigJohn, I agree w/everything you've said. An oil sampling kit is being mailed to me, as of Last Sunday, from Blackstone Labs. to be sent back for an oil analysis to determine if there is coolent in the oil. I did though change the oil and filter an hour ago as some credible people have told me it could take 3-4 drains to get the water out; it is the last change I'll do until I sample for analysis. And yes, I have been indulging in some wishful/magical thinking that perhaps a second oil drain will magically fix things. At the same time I've been tooling up and studying up towards to likelihood that I'll be wrenching soon.

On thing that puzzles me is that it seems that there ought to be some evidence of oil in the coolent, also. There isn't as far as I can tell. If there is a breech shouldn't the oil and the coolent go both ways? Thanks all, Jon

Big John · 01-28-2009, 08:44 AM

The entire coolant system is under pressure. Your oil system is under pressure only from the pump to the components it is lubricating. all of your return oil is under much lower pressure. Also the oil is more viscous than cooland (doesnt flow through small places as easily) I have seen some bad leaks that look like they have a film at the top of the coolant, but the for the most part it is coolant in the oil and not the other way around. Another thing that you can check while you are waiting for the lab tests. On a cold engine (start this on a dead cold engine. even a engine that has cooled off some can be under pressure and spray out hot coolant) is to remove the radiator cap and start the motor. Not all the time, but very often with a blown head gasket or cracked head there will be a leak to the combustion chamber as well. You can see this by watching your coolant as the engine is running. If the coolant is churning up and down you have a head gasket or crack. If there are bubbles continuously coming up in the coolant you have a crack or head gasket. This is important. You will have the coolant level go down and come back up some and sometimes spill over a little when the thermostat opens and you might eevn get some bubbles when that happens. Do not misdiagnose this as a head gasket. A head gasket leak will be continuous. It may wait till it is warm to start, but it will not happen for a minute and then go away.

BigBird · 03-31-2012, 05:05 AM

One location of a leak that no one has mentioned yet that I have seen is the coolant pump. I had the seal go bad on the pump shaft, it was a slow leak that I was puzzled by.

John Hopkins · 03-31-2012, 06:20 AM

I think some of you are missing the obvious.. you have milky scum in the oil..so you already know you have water getting into the oil, you don't need dye to tell you that..the most likely place for the water to get in is the joint between the head and the cylinder body...It doesn't matter what tests you do sooner or later you are going to have to take the engine out and get the heads off..then they are going to need skimming..

John.

John Hopkins · 03-31-2012, 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigBird

One location of a leak that no one has mentioned yet that I have seen is the coolant pump. I had the seal go bad on the pump shaft, it was a slow leak that I was puzzled by.

That is a closed system when the seal goes you will have a small leak of oil, water can't get in there..

John.

01-27-2009, 01:59 PM	#33 (permalink)
Big John Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Irving, Tx Posts: 822	The most critical piece of info that you need to find out first is whether or not it is coming from your coolant system or not. I would not waste any more oil till you found that out. Many of these tests mentioned would cost you less than a couple of oil changes and give you more tangible results without putting your engine at risk for bearing damage. Give a call to one of the independent local motorcycle shops and see if they have the equipment to test it. Otherwise as I mentioned in another post you can easily make your own test fixture by adding a schoder valve and a pressure guage to your system (you can splice into a hose and get creative) and pumping it up with a bike pump and seeing if it lets down. You can sometimes even hear a leak. I found one particulaly difficult leak in a toyota cylinder head, where it was leaking from a water port in the head to an intake runner, that way. It just seems like a waste to me to keep changing the oil and being wishfull that the problem goes away. A test can tell you for sure and any coolant leak into the engine is going to require some engine disasembly. I would find out for sure it is even a coolant leak before you worry about trying to pinpoint it. That is the systematic method for diagnosing water in the oil. First is it coolant? If yes, then proceede to engine component removal to determine where the breach is, starting with any location a gasket is seperating coolant and oil passages like head gaskets or as mentioned, in some cases there are water pumps that will share a passage, or like the GSXR with freeze plugs under the valve cover. You start with the easiest to check and work your way down to posible issues with the block untill you find it. __________________ 4 out of 3 people have trouble with fractions.

01-28-2009, 08:44 AM	#35 (permalink)
Big John Senior Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Irving, Tx Posts: 822	The entire coolant system is under pressure. Your oil system is under pressure only from the pump to the components it is lubricating. all of your return oil is under much lower pressure. Also the oil is more viscous than cooland (doesnt flow through small places as easily) I have seen some bad leaks that look like they have a film at the top of the coolant, but the for the most part it is coolant in the oil and not the other way around. Another thing that you can check while you are waiting for the lab tests. On a cold engine (start this on a dead cold engine. even a engine that has cooled off some can be under pressure and spray out hot coolant) is to remove the radiator cap and start the motor. Not all the time, but very often with a blown head gasket or cracked head there will be a leak to the combustion chamber as well. You can see this by watching your coolant as the engine is running. If the coolant is churning up and down you have a head gasket or crack. If there are bubbles continuously coming up in the coolant you have a crack or head gasket. This is important. You will have the coolant level go down and come back up some and sometimes spill over a little when the thermostat opens and you might eevn get some bubbles when that happens. Do not misdiagnose this as a head gasket. A head gasket leak will be continuous. It may wait till it is warm to start, but it will not happen for a minute and then go away. __________________ 4 out of 3 people have trouble with fractions.

03-31-2012, 06:20 AM	#37 (permalink)
John Hopkins Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Tredegar,South Wales, near England, not far from Scotland. Posts: 3,389	I think some of you are missing the obvious.. you have milky scum in the oil..so you already know you have water getting into the oil, you don't need dye to tell you that..the most likely place for the water to get in is the joint between the head and the cylinder body...It doesn't matter what tests you do sooner or later you are going to have to take the engine out and get the heads off..then they are going to need skimming.. John. __________________ Beauty is only skin deep but ugly goes right to the bone.

01-27-2009, 07:56 AM	#31 (permalink)
iavlx Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: lake view,ia. Posts: 45	jon,i think at this point you should try the least expensive thing first.get some oil system cleaner,follow the directions on the bottle then replace your oil and filter.run the bike for awhile and see if the problem comes back.if it does it's time to start toubleshooting and find out where the problem is.it could be a head gasket,cracked head or cylinder or i'm not sure but maybe leaking past a seal or o ring on the back side of the water pump. is the bike running ok,do the plugs all look the same.sometime when water gets in a cylinder the spark plug will look like it's steam cleaned.if you can get a cylinder leakdown tester and put air pressure in your cylinders you might hear it leak or see bubbles in your radiator.let me know what you find out. dave

01-27-2009, 01:30 PM	#32 (permalink)
jon lewis Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: prescott valley, az Posts: 581	Dave: Yes, I'm close to taking it to a pro for some troubleshooting. Problem in my mind is that it seems that all the tests (leak down, flourescent dye, etc.) will not pinpoint where the problem is. If it is a crack in the head, cylinder, headgasket or some seal/ o-ring on the back of the water pump air will qppear in the radiator waterw/all tests, correct? I will first try the oil system cleaner and an oil change. Jon

01-27-2009, 05:15 PM	#34 (permalink)
jon lewis Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: prescott valley, az Posts: 581	Yes BigJohn, I agree w/everything you've said. An oil sampling kit is being mailed to me, as of Last Sunday, from Blackstone Labs. to be sent back for an oil analysis to determine if there is coolent in the oil. I did though change the oil and filter an hour ago as some credible people have told me it could take 3-4 drains to get the water out; it is the last change I'll do until I sample for analysis. And yes, I have been indulging in some wishful/magical thinking that perhaps a second oil drain will magically fix things. At the same time I've been tooling up and studying up towards to likelihood that I'll be wrenching soon. On thing that puzzles me is that it seems that there ought to be some evidence of oil in the coolent, also. There isn't as far as I can tell. If there is a breech shouldn't the oil and the coolent go both ways? Thanks all, Jon

03-31-2012, 05:05 AM	#36 (permalink)
BigBird Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 17	One location of a leak that no one has mentioned yet that I have seen is the coolant pump. I had the seal go bad on the pump shaft, it was a slow leak that I was puzzled by.

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