Blackstone Labs oil analysis-re: white slime on dipstick

[jon lewis]

Back around Chrtistmas I was looking for an understanding of why I might have white slime on my vt1100c dipstick. Well, there was obviously water in the oil, but the big question for me was--could it be coolent? A lot of folks suggested potential causes ranging from an STD, short trip caused condensation, to riding in the rain, to head gasket/cracked head/cracked cylinder. I was getting ready to drop the engine to look for the worse when I believe Mark C recommended I send an oil sample to Blackstone Labs for an analysis (to rule out coolent). I only put 500 miles on the oil change and ran a couple of ounces of Seafoam in the crankcase for the last hundred miles (a Blackstone technician told me in advance it wouldn't throw off the results). I figured if coolent was getting into the oil it would show by 500 miles.

Here are the results of the analysis (comments only--I won't bother typing most values): Universal averages show typical wear metals from this type of engine after 3,000 miles on the oil. Copper and lead were the only two metals particularly out of line. Lead is from the bearings, and most likely copper is too. However, no signs of coolent were found. We identify coolent with sodium and potassium. Those levels were quite low here, so you don't have any significant coolent in the oil. 0.8% fuel is likely from normal operation and is not a concern. The viscosity was 10W30. (Could the Seafoam have changed the viscosity from the 10W40 I put in 500 miles earlier?) Keep an eye on oil pressure and check back for improvements. The copper value was 26 ppm and the lead was 9 ppm.

While I'm glad to hear there was no coolent present should the lead/copper values alarm me? the bike has 62k miles on it.

Jon

[old dad]

whew

I am so relieved it wasn't the "std" thingy

mark f

[jon lewis]

Mark: Blackstone Labs ruled out coolent in the oil, I forgot to ask them to look for spirochetes. Syphilis is still a possibility; I park pretty close to a pretty little 250 Rebel who I hear has gotten around if ya know what I mean. I really don't know what they do all day while I'm working. Jon

[tantasquit]

Jon,

Is the oil test sample result telling you that the slime is/was caused by typical wear?

Also, how confident do you feel about the 10W-30 finding? What brand of oil did you send them?

Do you have an oil pressure gauge on your bike to use for 'keeping an eye' on the pressure?

Thanks for posting the results.

[jon lewis]

Originally Posted by tantasquit

Jon,

Is the oil test sample result telling you that the slime is/was caused by typical wear?

Also, how confident do you feel about the 10W-30 finding? What brand of oil did you send them?

Do you have an oil pressure gauge on your bike to use for 'keeping an eye' on the pressure?

Thanks for posting the results.

tantasquit: They did not state that the slime is caused by typical wear; I posted exactly what they told me in italics above. I am going to call them Monday to try to tease out more info. For instance when they told me, " Universal averages show typical wear metals from this type of engine after 3,000 miles on the oil," I thought, "the oil I sent them only had 500+ miles on it; I would hope it didn't show typical wear metals from this type engine after 3000 miles on the oil." Perhaps the Seafoam I added to the oil 100 miles before the drain scoured metal deposits and they came out in the sample I sent.

I'm not confident at all in the 10W30 finding. I had filled the crankxase w/10W40 Honda GN4 500 miles prior to the drain. I'm wondering if the few ozs. of Seafoam reduced the viscosity.

I don't have an oil pressure guage; do you suppose the oil pressure light is a good enough way to, "Keep an eye on the oil pressure?"

I'm still wondering if I should be alarmed by the high values for lead and copper. I was told here by someone that coolent pretty much disolves bearing surfaces. I'm still wondering if the 500 mile sample was taken too early for coolent to get into the oil. On the other hand in the course of this process I discovered a missing dipstick o-ring and the o-ring that seals the airbox cover was all buggered up; I'm assuming both those things could have allowed water from riding in the rain or washing the bike into the oil. I'm on my third oil change and the slime still appears on the dipstick (although less so than when I first noticed it at Christmas.

What do you (and others) think? Jon

[jon lewis]

Hey folks, I read here sometimes that some would like people to post outcomes. These oil analysis results are an outcome of what were exhaustive threads in December re: White Slime on Dipstick. Can you tell me if the results raise any concerns/thoughts? Thanks, Jon

[SHADOW 1100T]

Jon, I don't think the velocity drop is something I would be concerned about because of the way viscosity is determined, unless they did the check useing the same temperature, opening in the test funnel and leavel of the oil checked that was used to determine the rated viscosity by who ever made the oil for Honda it would be different, besides the base weight didn't change just the winter rating which really isn't a big deal.

It would interesting to know where the heck lead come from but at least there wasn't a large metallic count which would indicate bearing brake down,,,,not good.

If there had been coolent in the oil the oil would have looked like Coffey with cream in it or in the early stages there would have been droplets on the dip stick.

For reasons beyond me as to why some oils will foam while others won't, I'm sure it's has something to do with the formulation of the oil, I do find it unusual that in today's market and advances in the oils that one would do that but in your case that's looks to be just what happened.

It will be interesting to see what your next oil will do, I personally have never noticed it in all the bikes i've owned with one exception, a Harley with the oil tank on the side of the bike, you coiuld see the returning oil and it would bubble quite a bit but that was a stright weight oil (50wt) and darn little tecknowledgey involved.

[louie]

As the report stated, lead comes from the bearings. That may be a cause for worry, since the only time you have metal-metal contact between the bearings and journals is when there isn't enough oil/oil pressure to "float" the journals - like during start up.

Here's a thought - are you sure you didn't overfill the oil? If the level in the case gets high enough to contact the rotating crankshaft, it can whip air into the oil (which might also explain the bearing wear, because oil&air foam isn't an effective lubricant).

[tantasquit]

The results show typical wear metals from this type of engine after 3,000 miles on the oil, but the oil itself only had 500 miles on it?

Has the bike been losing coolant or oil through normal usage?

Has the breather tube been cleaned lately? Is the engine making unusual noises?

The impression I get from the results is that readings seem to be within reason, despite that annoying slime that appears on the dipstick.

Does it seem to run fine otherwise? What would happen if you just rode it all summer with normal maintenance? (ie: no anticipated engine work as mentioned in older post).

Thanks again for posting the conundrum info, ride safe.

[jon lewis]

Ted, Louie and tantasquit: Thoughtful comments--I thank you.

1) The results show typical wear metals from this type of engine after 3,000 miles on the oil, but the oil itself only had 500 miles on it?

Yes, the oil only had 500 miles on it; if there was coolent leaking in I didn't want to ride too long on the oil change before I sent a sample in. Someone here said that coolent disolves bearings.

2) Has the bike been losing coolant or oil through normal usage?

That's hard to say; not out of the resevoir which has held steady. I did check the radiator fill neck and it was down 4" or so from when I changed the coolent a year age. I rapped the throttle as per MOM after I filled it; the coolent level dropped I refilled and capped it. I suppose yhere could have been enough bubbles remaining to account for the 3-4 inch drop over the year. On the other hand maybe it's been leaking into the oil as I've feared. Oil has been holding a steady level over time.

3) Has the breather tube been cleaned lately? Is the engine making unusual noises?

I check the breather tube monthly or so; never has more than a few drops of water and or oil in it. No unusual noises.

4) The impression I get from the results is that readings seem to be within reason, despite that annoying slime that appears on the dipstick.

Blackstone did say that lead and copper were "particularly high." I'm going to scan the actual report at work on Monday and try to post the scan here so that you can see the values for all elements.

5) Does it seem to run fine otherwise? What would happen if you just rode it all summer with normal maintenance? (ie: no anticipated engine work as mentioned in older post).

It runs wonderfully; I think I am going to run it w/normal maintenance at least until next oil change. Then I'm probably going to send another oil sample to Blackstone. I'll make a decision then as to do major repairs need to be considered.

6) As the report stated, lead comes from the bearings. That may be a cause for worry. Are you sure you didn't overfill the oil?

I Know; what I don't know is if the Seafoam just cleaned a lot of sludge or if I do have abnormally high bearing wear. I try to keep the oil right at the top line on the dipstick when the bike is upright.

7) It would interesting to know where the heck lead come from but at least there wasn't a large metallic count which would indicate bearing brake down,,,,not good.

Ya know, Blackstone commented specifically on the "particularly high" copper and lead values; I have a sick feeling in my stomach. That's one of the questions I have for them Monday by phone--do those values indicate my bearings are breaking down?

If there had been coolent in the oil the oil would have looked like Coffey with cream in it or in the early stages there would have been droplets on the dip stick.

It didn't look like coffee until the end of the drain when I tilted the bike to 30 degrees off the ground to get the last little bit out of the top end. That last little bit was coffeelike. The drained oil did strike me as exceptionally dark though as if the few added ozs. of Seafoam had scoured things completely. No water droplets on the dipstick.

Anyway--It's 65 degrees out here in the mts. of Central AZ; why don't we go ride? Jon