Battery or Charging system Problem??? - Honda Shadow Forums : Shadow Motorcycle Forum

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Old 03-14-2010, 03:03 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Battery or Charging system Problem???

We are discussing a 1995 Shadow Ace 1100

History: Last ride of season I got gas 2 blocks from home... Hit starter.... Lights dim, clicking only...
Pushed bike home...
Suspected battery.... But
I left the trickle charger connected, though...
A few weeks back, found trickle charger disconnected... Connected....
(Have two bikes, both on trickle charger...)

TODAY:
Started Goldwing... Starts fine ????

For Giggles, tried to start the Ace.... IT STARTS FINE!!! HUH?

So I got my Digital Voltmeter.... ALL MEASUREMENTS TAKEN ACROSS BATTERY.
At Very fast Idle.... Ace measures 13.2V
Revved it up, and voltage falls to 12.9-13.0V ???

Do same thing on Goldwing... 13.2 low 13.5 High RPMs

Both bikes have Gell Batteries...

So, I thought I'd check further. Glad I did!
Master Fuse OK and not corroded... but I found one of 3 wires on stator plug (3 Yellow Wires) badly burned...
I did not do resistance reading on the stator.... I forgot... But I did do this test: Connected I measured AC Voltage between each of the 3 wires at the top of the stator connector, and all 3 readings were identical... Low and High RPM..

4 hours later... after replacing all 3 female lugs..... Then finding the wiring is too short on the Male end to cut off and re-connect other lugs... Wiring is too restricted -- Maybe 1/2 to 3/4" between plug and wiring harness deep in bike.. Absolutely Wonderful....

So....I eventually cut off the female stator connector, (Where the wiring is much longer and adapt-able) soldered the wires onto the male tabs in the socket... and tested again....

Now I'm getting maybe .3V higher voltage.... on both RPM Ranges.
But Ace still measures lower voltage at Higher RPM than Wing does....
Of course, now I can't disconnect stator to measure resistance.....

Anybody remember voltage at High Idle vs. High RPM on a Shadow Ace?

I'm not certain if there is a charging problem or not....
In the meantime, I used Silicon Glue to seal and waterproof 'What's Left' of the stator connector, to insulate and waterproof the soldered connections....

P.S.: On my 1986 Golding 1200, Corroded Stator plugs were so common I removed my stator plug there as well.... If I remember, burned Stator Plug can burn out Stator....

Thanks... Jan
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Old 03-14-2010, 03:28 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Battery or Charging system Problem???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan Janowski
Now I'm getting maybe .3V higher voltage.... on both RPM Ranges.
But Ace still measures lower voltage at Higher RPM than Wing does....
I'm guessing that the Wing has more accessories to run than the Ace does.....thus a more robust charging system......and maybe a bigger battery too ???

How old is your gel battery ??
One sign of impending failure is taking a good charge but not being able to HOLD it for very long.

Time will tell but I'd say your charging is OK and maybe the battery is going downhill. Could be that you have fixed a charging or loose connection problem and it will all be OK now.

Pay close attention to how fast the starter seems to be running; that's as good a load test as the meters at the battery store.
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Old 03-14-2010, 03:39 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Battery or Charging system Problem???

Yes, the charging systems are dis-simelar.... Shadow uses Stator, 1500 Goldwing uses Alternator.... and the Wing has much greater capacity--charging system and battery...
I actually have more history with 1200 Goldwing charging system, which is also a Stator system.... So in fact, I kind of knew I was comparing Apples and Oranges....... and why I immediately checked master fuse and Stator connector....

YTZ14S is 4.5 years old.... So I'm still considering a new battery...
I'm hoping to take a ride sometime this week and see how the charging system reacts.....

Thanks for you comments...



Quote:
Originally Posted by Easy Rider 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan Janowski
Now I'm getting maybe .3V higher voltage.... on both RPM Ranges.
But Ace still measures lower voltage at Higher RPM than Wing does....
I'm guessing that the Wing has more accessories to run than the Ace does.....thus a more robust charging system......and maybe a bigger battery too ???

How old is your gel battery ??
One sign of impending failure is taking a good charge but not being able to HOLD it for very long.

Time will tell but I'd say your charging is OK and maybe the battery is going downhill. Could be that you have fixed a charging or loose connection problem and it will all be OK now.

Pay close attention to how fast the starter seems to be running; that's as good a load test as the meters at the battery store.
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Old 03-14-2010, 05:58 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Set your volt multimeter to AC and test each yellow wire separately.
(yellow to red lead, black lead to chassis/battery neg.).

With the engine running, you should be seeing about 10 volts AC at idle
and upwards of 40-50 volts AC at higher RPM.
You should have that reading on all three legs.
If you don't, you have a bad stator.
If you do have proper voltage, it's time to check the stator.

If you do, plug the stator back in to the regulator/rectifier.
Unplug the charging connectors that go back to the battery.
Measure DC voltage coming out of the regulator.
It should be about 13.5 at idle and upwards of 14.2 at higher RPM.
If you have the correct voltage, then your battery is the problem.
If you don't, you have a bad stator.

The battery you listed though is an AGM battery, not a gel cell.
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Old 03-14-2010, 08:12 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Presently the 3 yellow wires are soldered to the plug...
Is the AC Voltage test from each leg to ground accurate if stator is attached to regulator?
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Old 03-14-2010, 08:47 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Normally, you test the three yellow leads leads to themselves. Disconnect the stator from the regulator and connect one yellow wire to the red on your meter and another yellow wire to the black on your meter. Set the meter for AC and do the test. The move the black and red on your meter to another pair of yellow wires and do the test again. Three tests should have all combinations of yellow wires tested to each other.

Litnin's method allows you to do this test without disconnecting the stator from the regulator. Since the regulator is also the rectifier, internally, it connects the DC negative portion of the wave coming out of the stator to the bike ground, so you put the black lead from your meter to ground. You then touch the red lead on your meter to each of the three yellow wires. Have your meter set to "DC" since you're testing rectified voltage now.

The downside to this method, is twofold: You should never see more than about 14 volts, since the regulator is still in circuit and will be shunting the power when the voltage climbs too high. The other downside is that this test assumes the rectifier portion of the regulator is working. If that's failed, you will get faulty readings.

Disconnecting the stator from the regulator is the best way to verify what you have. You should get between 20 and 100 volts AC (higher voltage at higher RPMS) between all pairs of yellow wires and you should have no continuity between any of the yellow wires and ground, with the regulator disconnected.

--Justin
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Old 03-14-2010, 10:58 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tubes_rock
Litnin's method allows you to do this test without disconnecting the stator from the regulator. Since the regulator is also the rectifier, internally, it connects the DC negative portion of the wave coming out of the stator to the bike ground, so you put the black lead from your meter to ground. You then touch the red lead on your meter to each of the three yellow wires. Have your meter set to "DC" since you're testing rectified voltage now.

The downside to this method, is twofold: You should never see more than about 14 volts, since the regulator is still in circuit and will be shunting the power when the voltage climbs too high. The other downside is that this test assumes the rectifier portion of the regulator is working. If that's failed, you will get faulty readings.
Huh?

If you do the test, like I described, in the order I described,
the regulator has no bearing on what the AC readings will be.
If you have your meter set to AC and you read one yellow leg (red lead)
to ground (black lead) you will get one leg of AC voltage...
At no time will anything but AC be on those three wires,
regulator connector or not.

Testing leg to leg is a resistance check. Not a voltage check.
Resistance check these things is really a waste of time.
All the test for resistance and diode checks are pointless unless you
are going to physically repair it.
It take a LOT longer and is more PIA than to do a simple voltage check on each piece of the equation.
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Old 03-15-2010, 09:28 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Thanks for the clarification(s)...
Though I'm working on a 1995 Shadow Ace 1100, my last Stator experience was a 1200 Goldwing, and it's been 17 years since the 1200 Wing, No Wonder I transposed some of the testing proceedures..

Tonight Wife & I will address the measurements, and I'm guessing it will be a bad Stator... But I'm willing to be surprised.....

(I just knew higher RPMs providing lower voltage wasn't a good sign).

I'll post my findings later tonight....

Seeing that both of the parts (Stator & Rectifier/Regulator) are big ticket items... Is there anyone with suggestions as to who is best for Prices?
(Local Dealer is closed on Monday's)

Or, did anyone make aftermarket parts that have good reputation?

Thanks again...
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Old 03-15-2010, 10:17 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan Janowski
Seeing that both of the parts (Stator & Rectifier/Regulator) are big ticket items... Is there anyone with suggestions as to who is best for Prices?
(Local Dealer is closed on Monday's)

Or, did anyone make aftermarket parts that have good reputation?

Thanks again...
Electrosport seems to make good units.

I've used several of them in the past, both stator and R/R and have
never had one come back on me.

They claim to have "up to 20% more" output capabilities than the stock units.
Whether or not that is true, I don't know, but they do seem to make a quality product....
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Old 03-15-2010, 10:58 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by litnin
If you do the test, like I described, in the order I described, the regulator has no bearing on what the AC readings will be.
If you have your meter set to AC and you read one yellow leg (red lead)
to ground (black lead) you will get one leg of AC voltage...
At no time will anything but AC be on those three wires,
regulator connector or not.

Testing leg to leg is a resistance check. Not a voltage check.
Resistance check these things is really a waste of time.
All the test for resistance and diode checks are pointless unless you
are going to physically repair it.
It take a LOT longer and is more PIA than to do a simple voltage check on each piece of the equation.
Umm...the windings on the stator are not grounded. It's wound as a three phase Y-type. No ground connection. In fact, if you get any continuity between a yellow wire and ground, it means the stator is bad. Also, if you're measuring AC, the red vs black lead on the meter doesn't make any difference.

Testing leg-to-leg (sounds kinky!) with the meter set to AC and the R/R disconnected is a great way to test voltage. But the regulator has to be disconnected because it's a shunt-type regulator.

Agreed that it's pointless to try to repair a R/R. However, as you said, to test each part of the equation, they have to be disconnected from each other.

--Justin
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