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I thought the company was employees owned now. Additionally, they are getting paid so why aren’t they out riding instead of complaining, their union dues pays someone else to do that for them.
 

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AngryHatter said:
So they were locked out?
Semantics. The union had already voted to strike effective midnight tonight. The Motor Company just beat them to the punch.

I think they (the union members) are nuts for turning this down. A 4% per year increase in salary and a doubling of 401k matching contributions in exchange for paying partial premiums for health care?

I'd take that offer in an instant. I couldn't tell you the last time I had 4% increases in three consecutive years. They (union members) obviously have no idea what employment terms are like in the real world.

And the starting hourly rate ain't too shabby for yer basic high school grad.

Two articles from York, PA with a little more detail. The second - "Harley responds to union vote" has the particulars of the contract pkg offer.
 

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I'll save you the bother. From The York Daily Record:

10:02 AM
Feb 1, 2007 — The following statement was released by Harley-Davidson in response to worker's decision to strike::



Harley-Davidson Motor Company expressed disappointment at the union vote yesterday that rejected a proposed new collective bargaining agreement for employees and authorized a strike at its final assembly operations in York, Pa.

A strike at the facility is expected to occur as early as 12:01 a.m. February 2, when the current contract expires. As a result of the pending strike, production of Touring and Softail motorcycles at Harley-Davidson's operations in York has been suspended.

“We are obviously disappointed by the union's decision,” said Fred Gates, General Manager of Harley-Davidson's operations in York. “The proposed contract was structured to help manage future costs that could be detrimental to our business over the long term,” Gates said.

“While Harley-Davidson is a strong company today, we don't want to find ourselves in ten years in the same position that the Detroit auto industry is in now.”

The proposed contract provided for a four percent wage increase in each of the three contract years. Two percent of the increase was dependent on the union accepting the Company's salaried health care plan or another plan that would save the Company an equal amount of money.

The Company's union employees in York currently pay no premium for health insurance coverage and minimal out of pocket costs. The proposal would have doubled the Company's 401(k) contribution match and would have provided a special monthly retirement supplement for certain employees who retire during the contract period.

The proposal also would have instituted a second-tier wage and benefit plan for new employees hired after February 2, 2007.

For example, under the two-tier structure, new assembly worker hires would have earned $18.25 per hour in the first year of the contract, compared to $20.78 per hour for current assembly workers in the first year of the contract.

Harley-Davidson production employees in York are represented by International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers (IAM) Local 175.

Harley-Davidson, Inc. is the parent company for the group of companies doing business as Harley-Davidson Motor Company, Buell Motorcycle Company and Harley-Davidson Financial Services, Inc. Harley-Davidson Motor Company, the only major U.S.-based motorcycle manufacturer, produces heavyweight motorcycles and offers a complete line of motorcycle parts, accessories, apparel, and general merchandise. Buell Motorcycle Company produces sport motorcycles in addition to motorcycle parts, accessories and apparel. Harley-Davidson Financial Services, Inc. provides wholesale and retail financing and insurance programs to Harley-Davidson dealers and customers.
 

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I suppose the "family atomsphere" of working there and one of the "BEST" companies to work for...just went out the window. :roll: That's what "they" always say about this company/plant. :?

Locking them out after they(HD) "gave" them the day off to vote....doesn't go down too well with the "other local area workers". Guess they had the "wooo, wooo boogie man syndrome" of things getting broke/sabotaged on the lines. :shock: :shock: Really shows the "dark side" of the management. :twisted: :twisted:

Bullzeyet
 

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bullzeyet said:
Locking them out after they(HD) "gave" them the day off to vote....doesn't go down too well with the "other local area workers". Guess they had the "wooo, wooo boogie man syndrome" of things getting broke/sabotaged on the lines. :shock: :shock: Really shows the "dark side" of the management. :twisted: :twisted:

Bullzeyet
It was my understanding the union workers were still getting paid for today.

The first York Daily Record article said:
The company still is expected to pay workers for the day.
 

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Not much of a bean counter supporter!!!
I support these guys and I hope that they can work it out. Nobody wins in lockouts/strikes. Everyone has a bottom dollar and everyone knows what they will stand for to get it.
Remember labor unions fought for better working conditions for all of us.
 

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AngryHatter said:
I would have voted against the offer as well.
Yeah, it all sounds pretty good until you get to the part where the new hires will be paid less. That's always a recipe for disaster in my book. Everyone should be treated the same and they should all be held to the same standards.
 

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as a member of mgmt of a small company who makes decisions on those sort of issues let me say, Most companies are dealing with and have been dealing with a 14% avg increase in health care costs over the last few years. That cost cant just be absorbed forever without labor sharing some of the cost. When good group policies can cost approx 9000 a year for each employee well you figure it out either plans get cut raises get cut or someone has to help share part of the costs.

I have been on both sides and I can tell you we struggle each time as to how we best balance taking care of our workers and returning to the shareholders an adequate return on investment.

Managing health care costs are our single most frustrating problem.
 

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StradBiker said:
AngryHatter said:
I would have voted against the offer as well.
Yeah, it all sounds pretty good until you get to the part where the new hires will be paid less. That's always a recipe for disaster in my book. Everyone should be treated the same and they should all be held to the same standards.
What do you mean? If I've been doing the job longer shouldn't I make more?
 

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AngryHatter said:
I would have voted against the offer as well.
Here's my argument FOR the offer:

1) non-rookies earn $20.78/hour - or $43,222/year with no OT.

2) a 4% increase per year across three years is respectively: $1728, $1798, and $1869. That means, that in year two, they are above current pay by $3526 and in year three they are over current pay by $5395.

3) a reasonable guess as to what the company might ask their employees to contribute to a medical plan premium is probably between $250 and $300 per month - or a range of $3000 and $3600 per year. So the first year, they're behind in take home (but not in overall compensation - see #4). They break even in year two and are $2400 ahead in year three.

4) typical 401k matches are 50% of the first 5% of the employee's earnings - conservatively. If the Motor company is doubling that, that means they are giving an extra 2.5% match to the employee's contributions. Year one that means an increase of $ 1080, year two it's $1123, and year three it's $1168 (4% increases per year.

So - to save three grand a year or so in medical premiums, they're throwing away $2808 in increases the first year (again - about a break-even), $4649 in increases the second year, and a whopping $6563 in the third year. Or - a grand total of $14020 across three years in exchange for $9000 saved in medical premiums.

I don't see how that makes sense. And NONE of it is merit-based. Do the same job tomorrow as you did today and yesterday, get an increase in pay.

Here's how it works in the real world:

My health coverage premiums went up $50/month this year - no discussion, no negotiation, end of story. My base pay stayed the same. Raises aren't guaranteed and are strictly merit-based, when available. 3% is typical - but the opportunity only presents itself about once every two years. But you'd better be able to prove productivity gains for any hope of getting it.
 

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beowulf said:
StradBiker said:
AngryHatter said:
I would have voted against the offer as well.
Yeah, it all sounds pretty good until you get to the part where the new hires will be paid less. That's always a recipe for disaster in my book. Everyone should be treated the same and they should all be held to the same standards.
What do you mean? If I've been doing the job longer shouldn't I make more?
I work under a contract where we do in fact have seniority pay. There is however no provision for individual raises for job performance. The biggest issue I have with a two tiered system is that someone who is hired a day, a week, or a month before the system is instituted is sitting pretty, but the new hires are going to be very resentful. If something like that is approved, it's like all the current employees saying they will band together to screw all the new people. Doesn't inspire good working conditions.

Our contract also calls for us to pay a part of our health insurance. It is getting to be a major problem, and I don't think that Bush's new "plan" is the answer.

Overall, to me the new contract looked reasonable, with THE exception being the two-tiered pay system.
 

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buy jap's it's cheaper .. Harley will move to china or Mexico because of the greedy union. Look at cat it was a big outfit in the same town moved because of the union
 

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beowulf said:
StradBiker said:
AngryHatter said:
I would have voted against the offer as well.
Yeah, it all sounds pretty good until you get to the part where the new hires will be paid less. That's always a recipe for disaster in my book. Everyone should be treated the same and they should all be held to the same standards.
What do you mean? If I've been doing the job longer shouldn't I make more?
I agree with that
 

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Aeromark99 said:
AngryHatter said:
I would have voted against the offer as well.
Here's how it works in the real world:

My health coverage premiums went up $50/month this year - no discussion, no negotiation, end of story. My base pay stayed the same. Raises aren't guaranteed and are strictly merit-based, when available. 3% is typical - but the opportunity only presents itself about once every two years. But you'd better be able to prove productivity gains for any hope of getting it.
Yep, that where I live. :(

Benny
 

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Don't need a "pissin' contest" about this Harley issue. I get enough of the "anti-everything" on another board. But I can say, I was one of those Cat union guys. Too many things to explain about the CAT closure in York which some would not understand...at all. But I can say, it wasn't to send the "work" to Mexico. :shock:

Harley IS using the "same book" as CAT for this situation. I've already read those pages. Best guess...they'll be out "nearly 3 weeks"....HD needs that long a time for the "non-moving product"(domestic sales down) to help them. Good faith bargining or usefully created strike with long range problems.

Bullzeyet
 

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gopjohnny said:
as a member of mgmt of a small company who makes decisions on those sort of issues let me say, Most companies are dealing with and have been dealing with a 14% avg increase in health care costs over the last few years. That cost cant just be absorbed forever without labor sharing some of the cost. When good group policies can cost approx 9000 a year for each employee well you figure it out either plans get cut raises get cut or someone has to help share part of the costs.

I have been on both sides and I can tell you we struggle each time as to how we best balance taking care of our workers and returning to the shareholders an adequate return on investment.

Managing health care costs are our single most frustrating problem.
Your perspective is that of a small business, as you stated.
Harley is anything BUT a small business.
1) Are they profitable?
2) Have yr to yr profits increased?
3) Have same store sales increased?

I suggest they have yet to figure out how to manage very fast growth.
Same issue that led to AMF buying the company in the 70s.
 

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Why?

Why should I "back" these guys?
Because they build motorcycles and I ride one?
Screw them.

For doing a good job, the best in my department. I get about 4% raise a year.
Pretty typical these days. But I beleive that I make more than all of them
anyway. Only because I've held many different positions.

In order to make more money working for the man, you have to:
1. change companies - you can get more somewhere else than you make
where you are. Likewise, your company will pay more to replace you than
they will give you in a raise.
2. change positions - You have to be "promoted" in order to get a significant raise.
3. produce significant $$$ for the company - your not going to do this by
bolting on more pipes per hour than the next guy.

If you really want to make some money, start your own business.
Your not going to get rich building widgets in an assembly line.

4% is a decent raise
18 -20 bucks an hour is a decent starting pay
Everybody has to pay part of their health insurance... get over it
 
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