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Well, since you came to a Honda Owner Group (HOG) after 7 posts to tell us you bought a Harley instead of a Honda, you shouldn't mind if we critique your decision, right?

Where to start...motor. The HD has a Big Twin twin cam in it, 1687cc's minimum.

Honda doesn't make anything V Twin that big anymore, but if there were a leftover VTX 1800 at a Honda dealer, I promise you it would be faster, nastier, tourquier, more reliable and less expensive to run and maintain.

Even the 1300 Stateside or Fury would be as fast/quick or very close to it.

The Softail with stock exhaust is no louder than the Honda 1800. Vance and Hines each of them and the sound Honda will scare more people than the Harley...that VTX 1800 is a monster.

Suspension...hopefully you are 180lbs or less; otherwise you will find the Softail suspension inadequate and will have to upgrade those (pricey) trick shocks. Even when tweaked, Softails are the least comfortable platform HD makes.

But yes, Softails all look cool, all 564 variations they make of the platform...nobody "nicklebacks" (my euphemism, you can use it) themselves better than HD...there are waymore Softail models than there were Shadow models, for example.

So, you are buying a low-powered, expensive (in every way measurable) imitation of a Harley Davidson motorcycle...a twin cam motor with a huge list of defects in its design and a truly uncomfortable rear suspension with a decent front end, thanks to Showa (Japan).

Obviously a poor decision on the metrics.

Harleys are sold by the creation of yearning for a classic American Motorcycle and the wistful desire to relive a simpler time.

And for that experience, you will pay. Oh yes, you will pay.

Harleys are wonderful old tractors wrapped up in great Marketing & Advertising.

You'll feel cool and superior and have a sense of prestige and rebel status every time you tool down your street on that baby.

Honda doesn't make anything like a HD Softail.

Personally, I'd buy a Dyna before a Softail in a heartbeat...and it would be a carb fed Evo, not a TC. But that's just me.

But in terms of a good comparison, you should go ride a Victory before you buy a Harley....Victory's 106 motor is simply a superior motor to the TC 103.

Have fun!
 

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Wow, you truly have no clue what you're talking about do you? 3/4 of your points are complete bull$hit and the other 1/4 sounds like something you found with google.
Where I come from, if you're going to call "bs", you're supposed to back it up immediately or zip it....that goes whether you're in the Military or a televised Debate or a Bar on a Friday night.

I stand by everything I said. You are welcome to point out the alleged shortcomings in my critique. If you are able.



"WHY HARLEY?"
Here's a great video from the Harley Davidson web site that makes my main point...Harley is selling dreams. Priceless (expensive, hand crafted by robots) dreams of days gone by. HD is a great selling machine.

Why Harley-Davidson? | Harley-Davidson USA
 

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It was others that decided to chime in and run down his choice in manufacturer to make them feel better about their own shortcomings.
Yes, I will cheerfully "run down" anyone's decision to drop in here and wave their new Harley around.

Buying a Harley is always a poor decision compared to almost any other bike, because you are paying a huge premium to belong to their imaginary club.

It's like buying a Cadillac and expecting your life to become better...total consumer marketing nonsense aimed squarely at suckers.

Honda makes a superior quality product in every segment it does business in...if you want a top-notch generator, you want a Honda...lawnmower? Honda....outboard motor? Honda....cars, motorcycles, ATV's, power equipment...everything Honda makes is reliable and represents excellent value.

Harley Davidson motorcycles are, as I said earlier, wonderful old farm implements. They are iconic in the same way that a (real) Jeep is iconic...and like buying a soft-top Jeep, it's just a dumb idea, one the little boy inside tells you is a good idea.

HD is a marketing company peddling a dream....that part, the dream selling...they do really well.

Their motorcycles are really just props for HD Merchandise & Accessories...you see it all the time, two idjits on a Harley wearing thousands of dollars of Chinese-made HD logowear with big angry slogans about the American Dream. Is there anything more pathetic?

And they're nice props....too bad they didn't spend as much time making their motors as high quality as their paint jobs. (snigger)


 

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Wow my friend, just wow.
Thanks.

I've been listening to dummies on Harleys talk trash about Hondas for nearly 50 years, when the fact is that Honda makes a better product.

HD is primarily a marketing company...this shift from selling bikes to selling logos, selling "the dream"...will continue as HD riders get older and drop away. (think Oldsmobile...eventually, the HD brand will die)

Playboy makes more money off Licensing their Logo than from the magazine itself. Motorhead makes more money now from Licensing its logo than they do from their music. The Rolling Stones Licensing revenues are a HUGE piece of Mick & Keef's cash flow.

The Harley-Davidson corporation's ability to evangelize the Harley lifestyle without alienating a customer-base which prides itself on being free-spirited and countercultural has been a testament to its marketing shrewdness.


The Trademark Registrability of the Harley-Davidson Roar: A Multimedia Analysis
Fact is, I think HD motorcycles are cool...so are Playboy, Motorhead and the Stones.

What amazes me is how HD Owners all drink the Kool-Aid...they actually believe that "brotherhood, American Made, legendary" crap.

That part, frankly, I find funny.

As is my right...right? You Harley guys believe in "freedom", or say you do...

I am free to express my disdain for the overpriced junk HD is selling.


Your old lady run off with a Harley owner or something? Cause that would make more sense than your gibberish.
Drink your Kool-Aid.
 

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So I take it you won't be buying a Harley? :shock::shock::shock::wink:
Nearly bought an 01 Road King in March...

I like Harleys, I just think HD is brainwashing then bending its customers over and spanking them like little love slaves, which probably explains the chaps.

Personally, I wouldn't buy an HD either, I think they are over rated and over priced. However, be happy for the guy, he just got a new scoot.
Amen to the first part...but how can you be happy for a guy who's about to find out his first oil change is going to cost $400.? They should give out little HD logo'd Crying Towels at the Service Desk.
 

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What amazes me is how often "Harley guys" are stereotyped.

<snip>
I think Harleys are a bit like Renaults or General Motors cars...some models are bulletproof, others not so much.

You have a 93 Sportster, which as you know, is a great bike because it's a pre rubber mount (last year?) and that Evo Sporty motor is the most durable and dependable in the lineup.

I think the "stereotyping" is evidence of HD jumping the shark along with its primary demographic...(plus, harley owners buy into the "band of brothers" pack behavior...so yeah, they get stereotyped because they bought into the stereotype. )

In another thread, people are talking about Harley pricing, which is dropping on the used market....I think that's not just "the economy" but demographic shift as well.

Great Merch Marketing though...I wish Honda would get some better merchandising going on....they've totally missed the boat at Hondaline....they should license it out to Roots.
 

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This thread is interesting perspective in personalities. First of all buy the bike YOU like, there is an emotional connection, it is not just transportation. There are a lot of bikes I would like to own not all Honda and a couple are even HD. Given that I have some sympathy for Halifax and his views.

I can not speak for al HD people or HD stores but my experience with my local HD store is they are a bunch of arrogant snobs that treat my like I am priveledged to come in and look at their product. I would not buy any make bike from these people.

On the lighter side this past winter I was looking for some gloves that came up my arm. I could not find any I liked so I stopped at the HD store (against a promise I made myself). The lady handed me a pair that was just what I wanted. I asked the price and she said $185.00. I laughed and she smugly told me they were HD gloves. I showed her the tag that said "made in China" and left the store.
True that...the snob thing is a joke with all the Chinese junk HD dealerships are jammed to the rafters with.

( Watson Knuckledusters are the gloves you want, by the way...made in Canada from Genuine Cows...not cat, dog, rat or the other mystery leathers out there....)
Watson Gloves - Products - at Play -KnuckleDuster



I appreciate Quality & Value in all things...if the Quality is there, any emotional connection to the product is more fulfilling.

Likewise...I object to poor quality products, but I especially object to poor quality products posing as "exclusive".

HD motorcycles have great paint and I like the way they use substantial metal in places where Honda uses plastics.

(I replaced my plastic Honda signals with Chris brand metal signals, for example...Chris signals are either the ones HD uses or are dead ringers, but either way, they are a good quality item)

However, beyond the paint and metal crafting...the drivetrain on most HD's is a mess (exception, the Sportster and VRod motors)...the TwinCam is a hot-running, poorly designed thing whose primary objective was to make the motor impossible for S&S and Ultima to replicate (each make a better EVO motor than HD ever made).

Have you looked at the Class Action lawsuit about the thigh-burning heat TC's produce? Drive one sometime in urban traffic.....(Kuryakyn can't keep their smoked plexi heat deflectors in stock!)

Plus, the TC motor sounds thin compared to the EVO and has many throwaway assemblies that cannot be rebuilt, unlike the EVO.

Likewise, the EVO sounds different than a well-sorted Shovel...the "sound" most people in the Target Demographic associate with HD is really that of a 1960's FL Shovel police bike rumbling past at a slow idle in a parade...because that's the first Harley most people heard up close as a child.

But unless you buy an S&S or Ultima shovel clone....most HD shovelhead motors are, by now, cheeseburgers, rebuilt out of a mish mash of several different parts, because they just didn't last that long and HD doesn't support their old motors.

(whereas you can go buy a used Goldwing or CB750 SOHC anytime with the original motor in it, and in many cases, they've never been opened up...PLUS many of the parts are still available at your Honda Dealer.)

That's why most TC Buyers immediately have to go spend another Grand on an exhaust system designed to make their Harley Sound Like a Real Harley...listen to a stock twin cam through stock pipes sometime....pitiful.

The motor is the heart and soul of a motorcycle...and HD's TC motor just isn't very good...and I am CERTAINLY not the first person to say it.

(why would anyone pay nearly double for a bike with a bum motor that makes less power than the Honda built down the road in Ohio? Ohio's in the USA too, right?)


Nobody Ever Regretted Buying Quality
 

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Harley Owners are very forgiving, it seems...I would never buy a new bike that you have to shut down in city traffic for fear of catching yourself on fire or blowing up the motor or both.

The TC b has counterbalancers to reduce vibration and no "wasted spark", so this generation of Harleys neither sounds nor feels like a Harley Davidson motorcycle.

Without thousands spent on aftermarket or SE exhaust, breather mods, remapped FI and oil cooling to make a new Harley sound "correct" ...a new stock HD with stock exhausts is a shadow of its former self, pun intended.

They are softer, smoother and quieter...so where is the "thunder"? (it's at the aftermarket supply house at the SE catalog, mostly...)

(...and the rest is in the marketing. HD sells nostalgia and it sells nostalgia better than anyone this side of Happy Days.)

I think it's outrageous that "The Motor Company" is selling such a poorly designed motor...and getting away with it.

Well, at least they were getting away with it.

Judge Rules Harley Bikers May Proceed with Overheating and Burn Lawsuit Against Harley Davidson

A Federal Court Judge has denied a Harley Davidson motion to dismiss Harley bikers' claims for fraudulent and unfair business practices, violations of Consumers Legal Remedies Act (CLRA), and unjust enrichment. A class action lawsuit may now go forward against Harley Davidson alleging certain Harley motorcycle engines produce severe, and excessive heat causing burn injuries and clothing to catch on fire.
I mean really...what other vehicles need to be TURNED OFF AT STOPLIGHTS TO AVOID OVERHEATING??? (a ten year old Dodge Neon comes to mind, or a 1982 Renault Alliance)


Twin Cam Design and development problems


In the book The Harley Davidson Century (edited by Darwin Holstrom, Barnes and Noble Press, 2005) Steven Anderson, detailing the Twin Cam story in the chapter "The Twin Cam Era," explains the huge development problems Harley-Davidson had while trying to bring this engine to market.

It's a bum motor. The loyalty of Harley buffs is admirable, but at some point it's okay to love the Company without loving all their products. Companies make mistakes...but that doesn't mean you have to defend the mistake or go buy one.



Sure, kudos to HD for "trying" to build a big displacement air cooled v twin that meets EPA standards, but "trying" when you are a company whose very essence revolves around your Motor...is simply not good enough.









I'd buy another HD in a minute. About the only thing I don't like about them are the self canceling turns signals, and if your at a light too long, the engine really gets hot to a point it's ready to melt down, or at least it seems like it.
 

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I imagine we could all do better, no matter what we purchase, according to someone else. Was Halifax really trying to help, or is he a 'right fighter'; when a person always thinks they are right and wants to battle everyone around him in order to convert them to their way of thinking?

Being right at the expense of another, especially on a public forum, does not constitute a winner.
_________

I agree; expressing/discussing isn't about "winning"....unless you're Charlie Sheen (ha).

The OP directly or indirectly sought our thoughts on his decision.

My thinking is that nobody buys a Harley to experience engineering excellence...you buy a Harley to get in on the Brand message and ride a new interpretation of a traditional/antique American motorcycle.

I think I articulated my views clearly and factually...my views are shared by motorcycle critics/reviewers, owners groups in class action lawsuits, etc...it's not just some guy ranting on a message board.

And I don't think I even mentioned the cam chain adjuster pad issue, did I?

I don't hate Harleys, I like them a lot....I just don't see any point in pretending the TC is a good motor. It's not.

Same thing with the Kawasaki Vulcan 1500 motors....they used plastic oil pump gears for several years and it wasn't until lots of them blew up that they changed the design. Bum motor design.

Or the Victory 92SC...ever read about the transmissions on those things? Scary! Bum design.

I don't hate Kawasakis or Victorys either.
 

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So...the option to shut off the rear cylinder when stopped does not help at all?
TC's are lemons??? Filthy Lies!

It's the new customer base!....they have heat-sensitive skin. (rimshot)

Turning off your Big Twin at stoplights on a hot day is nothing new and not exclusive to TC's...Harleys are modern antiques, as are Royal Enfields.

Actually, with Enfield & Harley both building bikes in India, RE could easily be the new Buell.

That would be a great purchase...then HD has a small bike to put the old guys on, the guys that refuse to buy a TriGlide.
 

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I will say that when I got stuck in a traffic jam after the fireworks on the 4th of July, I'm very glad my bike was water cooled.

Cops were posted at every intersection, which made lane splitting mostly out of the question. Took an hour and a half to get out of the jam. Saw a bunch of guys on Harleys and choppers who were walking their bikes, as they had shut them off.

I let mine idle and I just waved.....
H.O.- You just wouldn't understand, man.
 

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Funny you should say that, CD, because "agricultural" is the word I use to describe the way Harleys feel to me.

That's not meant to be insulting...a Dyna Wide Glide in second gear on a mildly twisting road is an absolute hoot...so is a Jeep TJ with a stick and the soft top down with the canvas half doors removed.

Harleys & Jeeps are quintessentially American icons, nostalgia marketing, engineering warts and all.
 

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So who exactly is in the 'imaginary club'?
You have to Buy a Rivet to find out, man.



WHY A RIVET?
A rivet is one of the strongest bonds around, connecting everything from I-beams to your favorite blue jeans. But it’s more than a fastener. It's also a symbol of the bonds of Harley-Davidson brotherhood and sisterhood, whose approach to living is a pure, undiluted devotion to something bigger.

Living the Legend™ rivets are made of a tough, electropolished stainless steel and are available in 3" and 6" sizes. Show the world exactly where you stand by customizing a rivet with your personal message.

Living the Legend rivets are displayed on a curved steel wall or a special plaza throughout the grounds of the Harley-Davidson Museum®. And remember, because your rivet will be displayed on the grounds, it will be exposed to the outdoor elements, taking on whatever nature throws at it.

Rivets are available for individuals, dealers and H.O.G. Chapters.

INDIVIDUAL 3" OR 6" RIVET
You have Harley-Davidson stories and experiences all your own. Your story should be etched in stone or, better yet, engraved in steel to ensure its place in history.

INDIVIDUAL 3" RIVET
$250 each
Download Order Form (PDF)

INDIVIDUAL 6" RIVET
$1,500 each
Download Order Form (PDF)

DEALER AND H.O.G.® CHAPTER RIVET
Your dealership and H.O.G. Chapter involvement is more than a job – it’s a way of life.

DEALER AND H.O.G.® CHAPTER RIVET
$1,500 each
Download Order Form (PDF)
Buy a Rivet at the Harley-Davidson Museum® | Harley-Davidson USA
 

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HD are Marketing Geniuses, they really are.

Taking an obsolete product and transforming its faults into benefits is pure sorcery.

Bad products and worse management have nearly dragged the company into bankruptcy at least two times (that we know of.)

Marketing kept HD alive and led to its resurgence...not product, not management, not innovation, not quality, not reliability...Marketing.

Mom, apple pie, Jeeps, Levis, Harley, Coke, baseball, hot dogs, the girl next door...there are a few things that say "US of A" without words and a Harley is one of those things.

With that in mind, please don't confuse my disdain for the actual product's shortcomings with anything else...my disdain is limited to product quality.

Yes, I also laugh at the way Harley has assimilated "biker culture' and stamped its logo all over it...because it's great Marketing and the Customers have become HD's props.

I am pro-Harley and pro-American...I think the bikes need some work, their customers don't get good value for their money and their marketing plays people for fools in the little Marlborough Man fantasy world they've created...but that's all said with a smile, because it's all wonderful entertainment for the buyers... and those of us who enjoy smirking at accountants in bandanas and chaps.
 

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It's been a slice; thanks for stopping by to show us the brochure photos of the Harley you say you're buying.





Halifax I have been nothing but nice. The cold hard truth is your an *******. You have nothing better to do then harass me on here. Get A Life.

Sent from my DROIDX using Motorcycle.com Free App
 
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