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The better question is why do you care? Just ride your ride and do your thing.


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long time no hear from Brother........
 

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I confirm, this is a thing I've witnessed, and in some cases it isn't even the kind of sound that many of us would consider to be "music".

Imagine, .... a bike idling at the traffic light, while the "real biker" astride revs the piss out of his engine, ... and clearly audible over this, the sound of somebody alternately bragging and cursing to a beat. Every 10th word is discernable, and if your granny heard you say any of them, ... you'd be tasting soap.
I have heard bikes that were too loud. Senseless loud and they didn't sound good on top of that. That goes for any kind of bike. I love to hear sport bikes screaming as they head over 10, 12,000 RPM but once in a while someone will get an exhaust system on a sport bike that is just crappy sounding at around town speeds. Just loud and terrible sounding. Better yet when they don't have it tuned right so it snap, crackles and pops.
Cruisers usually aren't bad but the 18 and 19 year old brothers down street have managed to make some of the loudest sounding bikes ever. They were running open headers on an old Gold Wing that was stripped and blacked out. LOL. That was a death trap. When these too got their hands a couple of Harley's the noise level went way up. They had made them louder then straight pipes, not sure how they did that but they did. Better yet one of the Harley's needed about 3 or 4 minutes to idle right so every time that got started up he had to keep rev'ing it up or it would die. Then he would do a slow loop around the neighborhood because he was a afraid the bike would die on a major street before it warmed up. I have no doubt it could have.

The funny part about the two brothers is after buying and selling some thing like 12 bikes between the two of them they finally bought some fairly new Harley's. Then one got stolen at an apartment complex. LOL>
Regarding "loud" anything.

I'm a decent human being that doesn't like allowing my enjoyment to cause misery to others.
When I bought my VTX, it had straight pipes and was loud as F***. One of the first things I did was search for a set of stock pipes. It now has stock pipes. I don't feel the least bit guilty now when I fire up my bike.
When I lost the muffler on my Ranchero, many many years ago, it sounded so badass that my friends were in awe. But I would enter neighborhoods with barely more than an idle.

I have neighbors that added Hellcat exhaust to their cars and they fire them up at 2AM to go to work. Rev the engine a few times, just to make their hardon stronger. Then they lay rubber from their driveway to the first turn. Yeah, baby. They're real men!

There's no reason to inflict misery on others for my own enjoyment.

Before anyone says "freedom" this or that, the word has been *******ized to something it isn't. Everyone is free to do whatever they want, whenever they want, as long as it doesn't interfere with the freedom or etc of anyone else.

Re: lout pipes or music or whatever. I see it as nothing more than little man syndrome. An overcompensation of an inferiority complex. Doesn't matter if it's a loud Harley with 18" ape hangers or a jacked up 4X4 or a loud Hummer. It's all the same.

JMHO
Like I said earlier, must be a Northern thing. To each his own down here. We just don’t get bothered by that I guess. Lots of other issues someone being loud.

And LMAO at all the “little man syndrome” and “over compensation” talk. People can’t buy and enjoy what they want? I know a girl with a jacked up pickup that is super loud…what does she have? Lol. People can’t like other things than you like, or they are over compensating?

There is probably a reason none of you have “confronted” a real biker. Everyone is a tough guy, until they meet one.
I personally don't care for hearing some dudes (I've never seen a female with loud m/c stereo) stereo as he passes by on his bike... but I don't care to hear someones stereo blasting out from their cars or trucks either. Problem is though, a hundred years or so ago I remember how happy I was to put quality speakers (finally) and stereo in my car so I could crank the heck out of it. I made sure everyone within 500 yards could be impressed with my collection of AC/DC and Styxx tapes.

My 1st hot rod had a Hooker dual exhaust coming out of a big block, cammed up, chevy engine. I blew one muffler and never replaced it because I loved the extra rumble. And yes, I was rolling out of the neighborhood at 4:30 in the morning to go to work and I most definitely had to rev the engine a time or two as I was rolling out.

I'm willing to bet the old folks didn't like my rock and roll any more than I care for a lot of the stuff put out today. That's just the way things are.

I'll bet I ticked a couple of the neighbors off with my exhaust but not one ever came up to me and said anything so I never thought anything about it.

I don't think I have a "little man syndrome". I'm not a little man.... I think I'm kind of regular sized.

It didn't make me a "real man" either. I never thought about or felt the need to prove I was a real man. My Dad told me once he felt I was a grown man so I knew from then on that I was. Never had to prove it

I don't care for extreme foul language in public, especially if there are elderly or small children within earshot. I hear it, I'll politely go up to the person and point out who all is hearing them and ask them to tone it down a bit. It usually works.

If you hear someones music too loud and it offends you... go up and tell the person. They might just surprise you and turn it down... or they might just tell you to get stuffed and turn it up even more.... then the ball will be back in your court. What is the definition of a real man anyway? At least you'll get to exercise the same freedom as the person is who is aggravating you.

We all have to quite attaching negative labels and names to people who do stuff that you personally don't care for.

Too many of us in society have a tendency to try to tear down or sneer at things we don't approve of.

What sounds good or looks good is completely relative to each and every individual. Just because you don't think something sounds good makes absolutely no difference in the whole scheme of things. Just let it go.... How long are you sitting next to that person at the stoplight anyway?

My .02 cents anyway.....
 
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I'm not trying to be argumentative here, bu why would someone automatically assume negative things about someone who buys into a brand and wears their apparel? Maybe they like it. Ever check out H-D branded merchandise? It's typically much better quality than is found on other shelf's. Wearing it doesn't make someone a punk.
What makes anyone think that just because someone dresses a certain way or rides a particular brand of motorcycle that that person is looking down on you? Maybe they're not that sociable.....

I spent 23 years active military and then a whole bunch more as a OGA and/or OGS contractor. I have few to no friends that are not from those groups. I seldom even try to have much to do with folks that aren't from those small communities. Doesn't mean I look down on others, I just don't feel we have much in common and I'm good with the circle of friends that I have.

It's like when we get threads on here from someone who waves at everyone else while they're riding then get butt-hurt when someone doesn't return their wave. They race here and in a huff start a thread about how some big tattooed mean looking guy looked down on them and snubbed them. Really??? Want to get snubbed? Go try to break into a conversation at Startbucks with the guys on their BMW's and KTM's wearing their three thousand dollars worth of KLIM gear. They're probably not looking down on your either, they just probably don;t have a lot to talk to you about and they're content hanging with those in their group.

Every brand out there wants you to buy it's product and advertise for them. That's why they are in business. Ever wonder why Wrangler or Ariat advertise so heavily at rodeo's? Just because someone buys the merchandise and wears it doesn't make them a wannabe cowboy.

Hard to imagine someone who knows bikes not know a Honda from a Harley but I guess stranger things have happened. One thing that's true with the vast majority of Honda owners is they haven't did many mods to their bikes. Makes it kind of hard to have much to discuss. Doesn't give anyone an inferiority complex.
What's with the "biker" attitude?

If you ride what you want to ride and you're happy and content with it, you're probably a real biker.

If you wear what you want to wear and you're happy with it, you're probably a real biker.

There's a member on here who proudly dresses as a power ranger and OWN's the phrase. I'm thinkin' he's as much of a real biker as anyone who wears shorts and flip flops, all black leather, or specialty made KLIM. I'd not accuse him of having hate for others who dress differently so why would someone automatically assume the others have hate?

I have a friend who has a $35k H-D and he's easily put another $10k in to it. He's quite proud of that bike... and he should. He started out life dirt poor. Worked his butt off. Sacrificed. Made good decisions. He started with inexpensive bikes and started working his way up. One day he finally could do it and he walked into a dealership and easily wrote a check for the exact bike he wanted. A brand spankin' new H-D Ultra. He put custom seat, custom bars and assorted other farkles on it until it became "his". Think he isn't proud of it? Doesn't mean he looks down on somebody who rides a $1000 imported fixer. I doubt he hates those who ride Honda's. He walks like a badass because he is one. If you called hima credit card biker he'd probably just grin at you and walk away. It would just show your ignorance.

C'mon folks. This thread is starting to get ridiculous. I thought we were past calling people names just because of what they rode or wore. Judging others without knowing them.

As is said often by many who are wiser than me: "Ride your own ride". Get over yourself.

My .02 anyway.
 

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I'm not trying to be argumentative here, bu why would someone automatically assume negative things about someone who buys into a brand and wears their apparel? Maybe they like it. Ever check out H-D branded merchandise? It's typically much better quality than is found on other shelf's. Wearing it doesn't make someone a punk.
What makes anyone think that just because someone dresses a certain way or rides a particular brand of motorcycle that that person is looking down on you? Maybe they're not that sociable.....

I spent 23 years active military and then a whole bunch more as a OGA and/or OGS contractor. I have few to no friends that are not from those groups. I seldom even try to have much to do with folks that aren't from those small communities. Doesn't mean I look down on others, I just don't feel we have much in common and I'm good with the circle of friends that I have.

It's like when we get threads on here from someone who waves at everyone else while they're riding then get butt-hurt when someone doesn't return their wave. They race here and in a huff start a thread about how some big tattooed mean looking guy looked down on them and snubbed them. Really??? Want to get snubbed? Go try to break into a conversation at Startbucks with the guys on their BMW's and KTM's wearing their three thousand dollars worth of KLIM gear. They're probably not looking down on your either, they just probably don;t have a lot to talk to you about and they're content hanging with those in their group.

Every brand out there wants you to buy it's product and advertise for them. That's why they are in business. Ever wonder why Wrangler or Ariat advertise so heavily at rodeo's? Just because someone buys the merchandise and wears it doesn't make them a wannabe cowboy.

Hard to imagine someone who knows bikes not know a Honda from a Harley but I guess stranger things have happened. One thing that's true with the vast majority of Honda owners is they haven't did many mods to their bikes. Makes it kind of hard to have much to discuss. Doesn't give anyone an inferiority complex.
What's with the "biker" attitude?

If you ride what you want to ride and you're happy and content with it, you're probably a real biker.

If you wear what you want to wear and you're happy with it, you're probably a real biker.

There's a member on here who proudly dresses as a power ranger and OWN's the phrase. I'm thinkin' he's as much of a real biker as anyone who wears shorts and flip flops, all black leather, or specialty made KLIM. I'd not accuse him of having hate for others who dress differently so why would someone automatically assume the others have hate?

I have a friend who has a $35k H-D and he's easily put another $10k in to it. He's quite proud of that bike... and he should. He started out life dirt poor. Worked his butt off. Sacrificed. Made good decisions. He started with inexpensive bikes and started working his way up. One day he finally could do it and he walked into a dealership and easily wrote a check for the exact bike he wanted. A brand spankin' new H-D Ultra. He put custom seat, custom bars and assorted other farkles on it until it became "his". Think he isn't proud of it? Doesn't mean he looks down on somebody who rides a $1000 imported fixer. I doubt he hates those who ride Honda's. He walks like a badass because he is one. If you called him a credit card biker he'd probably just grin at you and walk away. It would just show your ignorance.

C'mon folks. This thread is starting to get ridiculous. I thought we were past calling people names just because of what they rode or wore. Judging others without knowing them.

As is said often by many who are wiser than me: "Ride your own ride". Get over yourself.

My .02 anyway.
 

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I'm not trying to be argumentative here, bu why would someone automatically assume negative things about someone who buys into a brand and wears their apparel? Maybe they like it. Ever check out H-D branded merchandise? It's typically much better quality than is found on other shelf's. Wearing it doesn't make someone a punk.
What makes anyone think that just because someone dresses a certain way or rides a particular brand of motorcycle that that person is looking down on you? Maybe they're not that sociable.....

I spent 23 years active military and then a whole bunch more as a OGA and/or OGS contractor. I have few to no friends that are not from those groups. I seldom even try to have much to do with folks that aren't from those small communities. Doesn't mean I look down on others, I just don't feel we have much in common and I'm good with the circle of friends that I have.

It's like when we get threads on here from someone who waves at everyone else while they're riding then get butt-hurt when someone doesn't return their wave. They race here and in a huff start a thread about how some big tattooed mean looking guy looked down on them and snubbed them. Really??? Want to get snubbed? Go try to break into a conversation at Startbucks with the guys on their BMW's and KTM's wearing their three thousand dollars worth of KLIM gear. They're probably not looking down on your either, they just probably don;t have a lot to talk to you about and they're content hanging with those in their group.

Every brand out there wants you to buy it's product and advertise for them. That's why they are in business. Ever wonder why Wrangler or Ariat advertise so heavily at rodeo's? Just because someone buys the merchandise and wears it doesn't make them a wannabe cowboy.

Hard to imagine someone who knows bikes not know a Honda from a Harley but I guess stranger things have happened. One thing that's true with the vast majority of Honda owners is they haven't did many mods to their bikes. Makes it kind of hard to have much to discuss. Doesn't give anyone an inferiority complex.
What's with the "biker" attitude?

If you ride what you want to ride and you're happy and content with it, you're probably a real biker.

If you wear what you want to wear and you're happy with it, you're probably a real biker.

There's a member on here who proudly dresses as a power ranger and OWN's the phrase. I'm thinkin' he's as much of a real biker as anyone who wears shorts and flip flops, all black leather, or specialty made KLIM. I'd not accuse him of having hate for others who dress differently so why would someone automatically assume the others have hate?

I have a friend who has a $35k H-D and he's easily put another $10k in to it. He's quite proud of that bike... and he should. He started out life dirt poor. Worked his butt off. Sacrificed. Made good decisions. He started with inexpensive bikes and started working his way up. One day he finally could do it and he walked into a dealership and easily wrote a check for the exact bike he wanted. A brand spankin' new H-D Ultra. He put custom seat, custom bars and assorted other farkles on it until it became "his". Think he isn't proud of it? Doesn't mean he looks down on somebody who rides a $1000 imported fixer. I doubt he hates those who ride Honda's. He walks like a badass because he is one. If you called him a credit card biker he'd probably just grin at you and walk away. It would just show your ignorance.

C'mon folks. This thread is starting to get ridiculous. I thought we were past calling people names just because of what they rode or wore. Judging others without knowing them.

As is said often by many who are wiser than me: "Ride your own ride". Get over yourself.

My .02 anyway.
 

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I'm not trying to be argumentative here, but why would someone automatically assume negative things about someone who buys into a brand and wears their apparel? Maybe they like it. Ever check out H-D branded merchandise? It's typically much better quality than is found on other shelf's. Wearing it doesn't make someone a punk.
What makes anyone think that just because someone dresses a certain way or rides a particular brand of motorcycle that that person is looking down on you? Maybe they're not that sociable.....

I spent 23 years active military and then a whole bunch more as a OGA and/or NGA contractor. I have few to no friends that are not from those groups. I seldom even try to have much to do with folks that aren't from those small communities. Doesn't mean I look down on others, I just don't feel we have much in common and I'm good with the circle of friends that I have.

Reminds me of when we get threads on here from someone who likes to wave at everyone while they're riding then gets butt-hurt when someone doesn't return their wave. They race here and in a huff start a thread about how some big tattooed mean looking guy looked down on them and snubbed them. Really??? Want to get snubbed? Go try to break into a conversation at Startbucks with the guys on their BMW's and KTM's wearing their three thousand dollar KLIM gear. They're probably not looking down on your either, they just probably don't have a lot to talk to you about and they're content hanging with those in their group.

Every brand out there wants you to buy it's product and advertise for them. That's why they are in business. Ever wonder why Wrangler or Ariat advertise so heavily at rodeo's? Just because someone buys the merchandise and wears it doesn't make them a wannabe cowboy.

Hard to imagine someone who knows bikes not know a Honda from a Harley but I guess stranger things have happened. One thing that's true with the vast majority of Honda owners is they haven't did many mods to their bikes. Makes it kind of hard to have much to discuss. Doesn't have to give anyone an inferiority complex.

If you ride what you want to ride and you're happy and content with it, you're probably a real biker.

If you wear what you want to wear and you're happy with it, you're probably a real biker.

There's a member on here who proudly dresses as a power ranger and OWN's the phrase. I'm thinkin' he's as much of a real biker as anyone who wears shorts and flip flops, all black leather, or specialty made KLIM. I'd not accuse him of having hate for others who dress differently so why would someone automatically assume the others have hate?

I have a friend who has a $35k H-D and he's easily put another $10k in to it. He's quite proud of that bike... and he should. He started out life dirt poor. Worked his butt off. Sacrificed. Made good decisions. He started with inexpensive bikes and started working his way up. One day he finally could do it and he walked into a dealership and easily wrote a check for the exact bike he wanted. A brand spankin' new H-D Ultra. He put custom seat, custom bars and assorted other farkles on it until it became "his". Think he isn't proud of it? Doesn't mean he looks down on somebody who rides a $1000 imported fixer. I doubt he hates those who ride Honda's. He walks like a badass because he is one. If you called him a credit card biker he'd probably just grin at you and walk away. It would just show your ignorance.

C'mon folks. This thread is starting to get ridiculous. I thought we were past calling people names just because of what they rode or wore. Judging others without knowing them.

As is said often by many who are wiser than me: "Ride your own ride". Get over yourself.

My .02 anyway.
 
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Sorry @Spiritman clicked the clickety thing too many times.....
 
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Which picture defines a Real Biker nowadays.
But I am partial to the girls !
View attachment 298305 View attachment 298306 View attachment 298307 I'd hate to judge anyone just by their appearance but I will volunteer my services to thoroughly interview, inspect and vet these applicants, and what the heck, I'll go out and have beers with these View attachment 298308 View attachment 298309 to attempt to make some sort of determination as well. If you don't hear back from me anytime soon I'm probably out tearing up some trails with this one..
View attachment 298311

Have a great day!
 

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When you compare people who ride motorcycles, of ANY kind, 2 or 3 wheels included to the rest of the population as a whole, ALL riders are in a smallish segment of the total population, and when you look at it that way, We ARE all brothers together. (And we argue like brothers sometimes...)
... and spouses. Wouldn't we ALL make one heck of an interesting Thanksgiving dinner!!!!
 
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Hey Theja1,

Thank you for the reply.

Which are you?

Why does everyone else have to be a wannabe?

Thanks,
John
I agree that if one wants to be a true "biker" you gotta be a 1%er. Personally I have zero desire to be a 1%er so I do disagree with the "everyone else is a wannabe" thought, but I get it. I believe that many that talk down about bikers are just jealous. Not all... but most.
@Theja1 is spot on regarding sitting in the stands at a ballgame. Deep down we're jealous. I'd love to of been able to compete at that level. I'd of did just about anything and sacrificed just about anything to of suited up and played a game at it's highest level.

I'm also 100% willing to prove that being a multi millionaire won't make me a bigger a-hole than I already am. Where do I sign up to find out??????:)

I get a bit huffy when people talk down or make negative assumptions about 1%ers. For some unknown reason I'm very good friends with one and he had his brothers down in Las Vegas take care of my son on his 21st b-day. Those dudes treated him like a prince and treated my wife like a lady when they met her. Yes, I know they have their flaws just like the rest of us but if you treat my family right, we'll all be friends for the rest of our lives. They are welcome at my house anytime day or night... no need to call ahead.
 
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Some of these responses make me laugh.

Why?

For the same reason I laugh when a stupid person thinks they're smart.

My mother rode a motorcycle. She rode on the street and she rode on the dirt. She had a MAJOR wreck in the Mojave on the edge of the Salton Sea.
She never looked like the "biker" chicks above.
But she also didn't stop riding because of that wreck. Truth be told, I don't know why she stopped riding but the last bike she had was the first one I wrecked on the street. She never found out I wrecked it either. I had to take parts from my Honda to fix her Yamaha. That was when I was 15.

I've NEVER worn leathers but I did have a denim phase.

Now, most of the time I ride wearing Shorts and a Tee shirt in the Summer and I wear Frog Togs over long pants when it's cold and a jacket that has 20,000 road miles on it. Best $20 jacket I ever bought. People ask what material it is because there's no material out there that is like it. Why? Because the wind has created a soft suede-like feel on a cotton fabric. It's like it was brushed a zillion times with a toothbrush to create a micro pile carpet.

If anyone wants to think they're more of a "biker" than I am, let them. I don't care. Fact is they NEED that moniker. I don't.

If I ever wanted to put resume to resume, I've ridden from minibike, to dirt bike, to three-wheeler (where I have my annoying lifetime injury), regular 70's bike, superbike, crotch rocket, cruiser, etc.
FWIW, I've also piloted boats and an airplane (just one so far) and operated heavy machinery that most young kids dream of operating and die never having had the chance.

Am I bragging? Maybe a tad but it's not to make anyone feel bad.

The "real bikers" can have whatever they need to feel better about themselves. I don't need a group of "brothers" to validate me. I don't need to smoke, drink, do drugs, and piss on others to feel like a man.

I'm not a "real biker". Why? Because I don't think riding a motorcycle makes anyone more special than anyone else.

Well, unless I'm riding my bike to work when it's 15 degrees outside and some Millennial dipshit thinks he's more of a man than I am just because he grew a beard. BTW, his name is "Callie". Who the frack names a male "Callie"? LMAO
Sounds like someone who can call himself anything he wants and it's nobody's business to say otherwise.
 

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3) Well, maybe the coaches at Penn State could have made good use of you to make your dreams come true. Just saying (or typing).
John: Don't understand the context here. What am I missing?
 

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1) Squid, has it ever occurred to you, that maybe people on the HSN, just know the difference between right and wrong?

2) We're (meaning me) not jealous. Please don't project.

3) Well, maybe the coaches at Penn State could have made good use of you to make your dreams come true. Just saying (or typing).

4) Huff all you want to with your fingers Squid. This is the HSN and not the 1% huffy cheering section.

Going back to the OP's original post, I honestly believe that most members of the HSN are motorcycle riding enthusiast, plain and simple. My thought around 'biker' is in fact that they are the members of a specific gang of riders that have absolutely nothing to do with HSN and it's motorcycle riding enthusiast.

John

Thank you,
John
John I've been around this site for a little while. Not as long as you... but a while. I don't think people here are any better or worse than people anywhere else. They're just people that at one time or another probably owned or thought about owning the Dodge van of motorcycles, the Honda Shadow.

In my long winded, poorly written post I wrote "I believe that many that talk down about bikers are just jealous. Not all... but most." It would appear that you fall into the "not all" crowd. Good on ya.

I believe that there are many on HSN who are in the 1% cheering section. I've grinned numerous times when I've seen pics of fellow HSN'ers out in public dressed all in black like pirates... just as if they've crawled off the back of a HOG. So what? Please don't tell me that since I'm not a huge fan of the Shadow that I don't have a right to be here or state my opinion.

A couple of years back I had the opportunity to meet, speak with, and shake hands with a cat by the name of Dakota Meyer. Last year I ran across an interview with him by Joe Rogan. I'm sure it's on YouTube somewhere. Long story short, during the interview Dakota said something along the lines that we should make more of an attempt to find what we have in common and celebrate that and quit trying to find what separates us. I think he has a good point. You don't like dudes that ride around with a 1% diamond on their vest.... cool.... not a big deal either way. You disagree with most if not everything I post.... that's fine, bothers me not. How about we agree that you, me, @Theja1 , @Troy Jollimore and most all of the other good folks around here are fans of motorcycles and enjoy riding them now and then... We'll just try to celebrate that. Cool?
 

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I don’t think John said he hates the 1% Diamonds, Squid… It’s probably the attitude he gets back that bugs him. There’s always some, but I’ve never really understood ‘cliques’ at all, myself. Think they’re silly. Like the air-cooled Porsche crowd telling newer owners they don’t drive ‘real’ Porsches...

Like you mention the Shadow as being the ‘Dodge Van’ of bikes. Inaccurate, because Hondas are reliable! 😉 I do admit that my early model is the one I like best. Just a fan of all of the ‘early to mid-80s’ bikes, in how they looked. Once Honda won their lawsuit against HD, they just became out and out copies. But I’m also not a fan of the big HD cruisers, either, with the oversized fenders and enough chrome to be seen from orbit. I wouldn’t mind many of their newer bikes, though… and don’t get me started on the Night Rod! Drool 😄

But it shouldn’t matter. If you ride, you ride… Hell, with today’s homicidal, idiot drivers, my hat goes off to anyone that braves the roads on two wheels!
Don't take the phrase "Dodge van of the motorcycle world" as an insult because it's not intended as one. Butt tons of old Dodge vans out there on the road and there's a reason for it... they're dependable and reliable. They don't do anything great, but they do most everything pretty darn good.
 

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THIS is one of my HUGE pet peeves in life.

TEAMS

It's a carryover of the bullsquirt they teach you in high school. Team rivalry.

Ford v Chevy
Republican v Democrat
My team v Your team.

The main reason I don't belong to ANY club or clique or team is the insane belief that the other guy is inferior simply because he's not on my team.
It's cult mentality. If you don't believe what I believe, you're inferior.

It's pretty stupid, really.

And, well, if you believe the other guy is inferior, simply because he has a different opinion, or team, then yeah, I guess I'm calling you stupid.
You know, we're pretty much all saying the same thing, just differently. Some have called those wearing vest with patches and loud bikes various names and have made demeaning assumptions regarding their personal bravery, masculinity etc.etc. What's the difference? "the insane belief that the other guy is inferior simply because he's not on my team."
 
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