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Discussion Starter #21
Pictures never do justice, but it does look a little on the lean side. For everything you’re doing, I wouldn’t be too concerned with the engine being ‘ruined’. You’re just playing to either side of stoichiometric (balance). Leaner gives a bit more power. Richer is a bit easier on parts. Carbs are analog devices, so ideally you would fine tune the jets and screws as you rose in elevation. The manufacturer is just saying it’s not THAT important until you hit XXXX ft.

The problem is, many mechanics get a little ‘Righteous’. “Who does this jerk think he is, reading something on the Internet and telling ME how to do MY job? Hey buddy! Oh, look! Your carb rubbers are ruined! Take THAT for a ‘Jerk Tax’...” Only they’re usually right. Most customers have no idea, and when things go wrong, they blame the mechanic for following their instructions. This guy might have it in his head now that he’s right and you’re wrong, and will just punish you for any further ‘annoyance’ you cause him.

Is there another mechanic around with a good reputation? Unfortunately, even the older ‘Shadetree’ retirees are outgrowing carburetion. Otherwise, have a discussion with this guy. Tell him you’re sure the dry, whitish plugs and popping are the sign of a lean condition, and ask if it would hurt anything to adjust the jets to the richer side. Appeal a bit to his ego, in that a mechanic of his talents could make that change so fast you’d barely even notice it was apart. Judge the reaction you get. If he’s set in his ways, you may not get anything other than more bills out of him.
Yeah he told me the diaphragm had 2 holes on the first day, before I complained about it. He also said another guy with an 1100 had his bike in at the same time and he also had ruined rubbers.

He was telling me right when I made the appointment about the need to go leaner due to elevation. His exact words I believe we're "you actually need to lean it out a little at the top end." At the time I thought he was just saying that he was going to go a little leaner than the dyno jet specs called for. which I was willing to go along with him because I understand there's less oxygen up here and he's the expert.

But now I'm wondering if he was actually saying that he was going to literally make it leaner than it already was in its stock setup.

But it runs worse now and the question is too lean or too rich. I'm not sure why he thinks the plugs look dark. He made his judgement based on that.
 

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Discussion Starter #22 (Edited)
Yep, looks lean to me.
We need to know what @swifty2014 thinks though, he's the plug guru around here.

I bought a new Honda soon after the EPA mandated the non-adjustable carbs ( capped air/fuel screws, fixed needle clips, etc.) and it would surge at highway speeds, so much so, the pipes turned blue.
I put a washer on the needles, polished out the bluing, surging stopped, and called it fixed.

Soon after I did that I got a recall notice to fix the surging, it entailed changing the needles and polishing the pipes.
My friend managed my Honda dealership at the time so I got the replacement needles from him, pen stroked the recall for him to satisfy Honda, and never installed them.

For me, we ride 90% of the time in the carb range that is needle/main jet controlled, not just the main jet.
Raising the needle actually enrichens the mixture throughout the operating range, even at idle.

I'm not in the change/modify the pipes, chase the "best" carb jetting and giving up at "good enough" camp.
Although I will admit to doing some subtle/undetectable pipe mod's so the pipes drowned out the final drive whine.
Instead of the hole-saw mod a better way is to just drill thru the end cap on the baffle that is removed doing the hole-saw butchery.
That alone will change the sound/exhaust note to a deeper/tolerable level, with no fuzzy/whistling/annoying sound, and will drowned out the final drive and typical Honda whine/whirring.
That still costs nothing except buying a 3/4"+/- jobber (long) drill bit or proper hole saw, and only requires raising the needles most times.

jmo,
sorry for the bloviation right there.
.
No problem. I'm not in the camp to want to work on motors at all honestly. I just want to ride. I'm willing to do a lot solely to save money and time. But I'm not super mechanically inclined and I don't enjoy it.

My pipes were physically damaged and looked terrible that's at least 80% why I wanted new ones. Sound was just a bonus. I only scheduled a rejet because pretty much everyone says it needs one after new pipes, and I thought my bike was already on the lean side. This is all just a headache I don't want or need. I would've just bought a stock exhaust replacement if it wasn't so expensive.

Now I'm in a hole I can't get out of. And I'm afraid to dig deeper.
 

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Yeah he told me the diaphragm had 2 holes on the first day, before I complained about it. He also said another guy with an 1100 had his bike in at the same time and he also had ruined rubbers.

He was telling me right when I made the appointment about the need to go leaner due to elevation. His exact words I believe we're "you actually need to lean it out a little at the top end." At the time I thought he was just saying that he was going to go a little leaner than the dyno jet specs called for. which I was willing to go along with him because I understand there's less oxygen up here and he's the expert.

But now I'm wondering if he was actually saying that he was going to literally make it leaner than it already was in its stock setup.

But it runs worse now and the question is too lean or too rich. I'm not sure why he thinks the plugs look dark. He made his judgement based on that.
Sorry you had to spend so much to find out that a shop is more interested in quick fixes to bikes with a diagnostic port to plug into.
I'm surprised they actually agreed to do the work as your experience is more typical than you would expect and the prices usually quoted/paid reflect an anticipated re-do.

If you take this on yourself, nothing worse than what's going on now can happen, and you can always return it to where it is now, or even stock.
Did he show you the torn diaphragm attributed to your use of Seafoam, I'm sure you paid for a replacement?
That question is rhetorical as it's "water over the dam" now.
I know an oem slide/diaphragm costs way more than the aftermarket diaphragm only replacements, and I've used seafoam many times on CV carbs and never had a problem.



jmo,
.
 

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Discussion Starter #24
Sorry you had to spend so much to find out that a shop is more interested in quick fixes to bikes with a diagnostic port to plug into.
I'm surprised they actually agreed to do the work as your experience is more typical than you would expect and the prices usually quoted/paid reflect an anticipated re-do.

If you take this on yourself, nothing worse than what's going on now can happen, and you can always return it to where it is now, or even stock.
Did he show you the torn diaphragm attributed to your use of Seafoam, I'm sure you paid for a replacement?
jmo,
.
I went there because they specifically advertise doing carb work. Their Facebook post even said "If you need carb work, Bill is a carb genius."
No he didn't offer to show me the diaphragm.

This shop literally only has one negative rating, with no written review. My cousins who are ex military and police harley guys go there. If even this shop is this crooked then I can't ever take it anywhere. That's probably why more people don't ride motorcycles because they can't work on them themselves and the state of motorcycle mechanics is even worse than auto mechanics.

I'll have to debate whether I want to go after it myself or call it a day and try living with it.
 

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I went there because they specifically advertise doing carb work. Their Facebook post even said "If you need carb work, Bill is a carb genius."
No he didn't offer to show me the diaphragm.

This shop literally only has one negative rating, with no written review. My cousins who are ex military and police Harley guys go there. If even this shop is this crooked then I can't ever take it anywhere. That's probably why more people don't ride motorcycles because they can't work on them themselves and the state of motorcycle mechanics is even worse than auto mechanics.

I'll have to debate whether I want to go after it myself or call it a day and try living with it.
I feel your pain in all this.
Sometimes an independent shop is your only choice over DIY.

Honda and other dealerships want older bikes to go away so they can sell more new bikes.
And new owners of older bikes have begun to realize this more after having to deal with big dealerships.
Many shops I've been to have signs stating they will not service/repair any bike over 10 years old!
The only sympathetic people to owners of older bikes are the people behind the parts counter, that's all.

Good luck getting "Bill" to re-jet your bike "your way" at no further cost to you.
Don't give up just yet, we can talk you thru it, even though you get no joy working on bikes.
Maybe someone on the forum lives near you and can come by and help you thru it.
.
 

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1999 Shadow 750 ACE VT750CD3 Modified
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Postings of interest popped up something useful for once:

Anyway beyond that this is what I was adding to this discussion:

Wide Open Throttle is the test of the main jet sizing and if the tuning is wrong there it is wrong everywhere except possibly low speed. No point in adjusting the needle height until you get the main jets right.

I'm no carb genius, however I'd start with the DynoJet kit installed as per instructions and adjust from there, fsck "Bill the Carb Genius" (Can I say that? I think so a file system check is needed).

FWIW the following is more or less a direct comparison of Keihin (Original) to DynoJet sizing, I have found it pretty accurate.

293436


This is the procedure I'd use:
 

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Discussion Starter #27
I'm gonna take the tank off and start looking at getting the carbs out. If I feel too iffy I won't do it I'll stop. Don't really want to wait until Monday OR talk to the guy again.
 

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I'm gonna take the tank off and start looking at getting the carbs out. If I feel too iffy I won't do it I'll stop. Don't really want to wait until Monday OR talk to the guy again.
This may help:
 

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Oh, also he said one of the diaphragms was torn and the gaskets looked flattened and discolored. He asked if I put any fuel cleaner in it and I said seafoam. He said it messed up the rubber.
Seafoam will absolutely NOT mess up the diaphragm so I suspect this guy is making up excuses.
Tell him to watch this.
 

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Discussion Starter #33
Popping seems lessened but obviously still there.

You're not gonna believe this: I didn't want to go up to the freeway right now because I'm tired. But I got it on an open road and went wot from about 30 to 50mph...and it seemed to lack a bit of power. It wasn't the same as before, when it seems to cut power for a split second and jerk. This time it just seemed A LITTLE less powerful ongoing.

So I stopped and took off the seat and, I know it's ill advised, but I pulled the air filter and road home. No more bogging, and it sounded louder and meaner. I need to try it with a high flow filter.

But what do you think? Steady slight bog vs a jerking power cut, totally gone with unrestricted air intake?
 

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I hate to say this, but that would point to too rich.
Edit: Is the filter clogged or a mouse nest in the box?
 

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Discussion Starter #35
I hate to say this, but that would point to too rich.
I was afraid of that. So how is that different from the jerking power cut outs I was experiencing before? Was that also rich and it's just worse now, or was that lean and I went past perfect to rich?

Getting carbs in and out was easier than I thought. I can do it again if I have to.
 

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1999 Shadow 750 ACE VT750CD3 Modified
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You may have blown past perfect, I can't believe that earlier picture of the spark plug was too rich.

Did you reposition the jet needle clip to Dynojet's recommendation?
How big a jump up did you make with the main jets over stock sizing use the chart to compare the Dynojet to Keihin jets.
You want to get it the best at WOT for main jet selection first. Maybe check it out on the freeway tomorrow as it is, watch out for Easter idiots with their minds elsewhere though.
Once you get that verdict maybe try again with leaner mains and see what happens.
I have the feeling the power cut outs was because the needle was too low as I take it that occurred at part throttle.

Every time you pull the carbs it seems easier and faster. Up to a point of course. (-;
 

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Discussion Starter #37
You may have blown past perfect, I can't believe that earlier picture of the spark plug was too rich.

Did you reposition the jet needle clip to Dynojet's recommendation?
How big a jump up did you make with the main jets over stock sizing use the chart to compare the Dynojet to Keihin jets.
You want to get it the best at WOT for main jet selection first. Maybe check it out on the freeway tomorrow as it is, watch out for Easter idiots with their minds elsewhere though.
Once you get that verdict maybe try again with leaner mains and see what happens.
I have the feeling the power cut outs was because the needle was too low as I take it that occurred at part throttle.

Every time you pull the carbs it seems easier and faster. Up to a point of course. (-;
Yes I put the clip in slot 3, with the washer as per the instructions.

170 main in front, 175 main in rear. The chart above doesn't list dynojet sizes by fives like that. And my K jets just say 2.4 on them. So I have no idea how this setup compares to stock.

I could go back to the 165 front, 170 rear but leave the needle at position 3.

I'll try it on the freeway tomorrow. I ordered a k&n high flow filter with overnight shipping so I hope that comes fast.
 

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I could go back to the 165 front, 170 rear but leave the needle at position 3.
That sounds like the plan after tomorrows freeway run.
Leave the needle on 3.
Genuine Keihin Jets should look like this with the stylized K and then the number in this example 110.
Crappy focus due to me and the cell phone.
293447
 

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Discussion Starter #39
Genuine Keihin Jets should look like this with the stylized K and then the number in this example 110.
Crappy focus due to me and the cell phone. View attachment 293447
Huh. Mine do not have anything on the sides.

These were all the parts that came out. There's the stylized K on top and 2.4 but nothing else. And I don't know what these other pieces are.
293448


Also the stock springs.
 
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