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Discussion Starter #1
So today I was pulled over by a fine member of our local constabulary because apparently I executed a rolling stop at a stop sign. I was certain that I did come to a full stop but he said I did not even put my feet down, thus how could I have stopped completely. So, I told him that when all was clear at a stop sign, that I could actually stop fully, with out putting my foot down. He let me go but then I went out and tested my theory. I can in fact do a full stop with out putting my feet down providing there are no other vehicles that are waiting to go. Albeit the stop is very short, it is technically a full stop. Opinions :?:

cheers

Dragoon
 

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We were told in MSF class that even if capable a full stop is not legit unless a foot goes down....I thought CA was two feet?
 

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Discussion Starter #3
That may well be the case, however. However, the officer was still kind enough to let me go. Must be valentines or something :?
 

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What are you looking for an opinion on? Telling the cop a story that he probably didn't buy and getting off anyway, or full stops without putting your feetdown?
It was good of him to let you off. And I don't know about the law saying you have to put a foot down to actually be stopped, but I once heard of a fellow who was charged with a rolling stop, and went to court to fight it. Now, he was in a car, but in court, he apparently flipped a quarter in the air, and caught it when it came back down. Then he asked the officer on the stand if he had seen the quarter stop. The officer said no, and the man then stated that the quarter had to have stopped when it changed direction from going up to coming down. It was the same for him in the car - he came to a brief stop, however brief, but the officer didn't see it. The judge dismissed the case. True or not? I wouldn't want to test it, but the facts are, the quarter had to have stopped.
My real opinion? You were lucky the cop must have been in a good mood, and it's good to hear for you.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
John,

My cousin happens to be deputy chief Larry Hill of the Ottawa police force who, as you might know from the press is retiring this year after 31 years on the force. I state this simply because my close relationship with him since he was a beat cop has thought me exactly how to handle police officers, hence my reference to them as our fine constabulary: respect is the key because they are doing a vital job that for the pay most of us wouldn’t risk doing. I don’t think any police officer wants to give you a hard time and if you treat them with respect, you get the best result. This is what happened here. I was not “matter of a fact” in my approach, I simply stated that which I had observed being that I can in fact stop and not put my feet down. So, in conclusion, you are right, I am lucky, but I was also very polite and respectful to the man. I was not aware of the law in California about the two feet which I found out purely from this thread and will keep it in mind. This is because I have lived in Ottawa most of my riding life, however, I must admit, I don’t know what the law says about this there either. I will ask Larry next time we chat.

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Dragoon said:
I can in fact do a full stop with out putting my feet down providing there are no other vehicles that are waiting to go. Albeit the stop is very short, it is technically a full stop. Opinions :?:
You may very well be able to do a stop without putting your feet down,
as can I. However, legal definitions don't always agree with dictionary
definitions. It will depend on the state law as to what that states
definition of "stopped" is. Some states, such as here in Georgia,
a "complete stop" legally is defined as stopping behind the white line
and ceasing movement for a minimum of 3 seconds.
The law here also states that a motorcyclist must also put down one foot.

Different states will have different laws.... and such you have to abide by accordingly.

Ottawa John said:
Now, he was in a car, but in court, he apparently flipped a quarter in the air, and caught it when it came back down. Then he asked the officer on the stand if he had seen the quarter stop. The officer said no, and the man then stated that the quarter had to have stopped when it changed direction from going up to coming down. It was the same for him in the car - he came to a brief stop, however brief, but the officer didn't see it. The judge dismissed the case. True or not? I wouldn't want to test it, but the facts are, the quarter had to have stopped.
And if a prosecutor was present and was relatively quick thinking or the
judge had thought about it, it could have likely turned the other way.

Throwing a quarter up in the air and having it fall does not mean it will stop in mid air before returning downward.
Unless you can throw a quarter perfectly straight up without altering it's trajectory (a perfect 90 degree up throw) then the quarter is going to travel in a parabolic arc and will never completely stop until it's at
it's resting point. He just got lucky because the judge wasn't quick enough and he pulled one over on the court.
 

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I keep my eyes open for LEOs at stop signs. Most times, I do rolling stops. When I do see a LEO, I will put BOTH my feet down to demon strate fully that I have stopped.... :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:
 

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Seems to me the quarter story is irrelevant unless the guy in front of the judge changed directions 180 degrees at the stop sign - whoever said the judge was not too bright had a point.

With all due respect to the constabulary and their paychecks, these guys are paid not too shabbily at all. A rookie cop in Ontario generally starts at about $70K a year and it's all gravy after that, including plenty of overtime working things like auto shows, a well-defined career path, rock solid, gold coated pension and spectacular benefits. While there is an element of danger to the job, the death and injury rate for fishermen, lumberjacks, farmers, etc... is higher.

This having been said, I agree that respect will get you a lot farther with these folks than a curled lip, but then that's true for anyone isn't it?
 

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i can put both my feet down.....and still blow thru the stop at 5 mph....

but as has been posted....legal definitions don't necessarily have anything to do with the real world.



I got popped by a univeristy of oklahoma officer one night for not coming to a complete stop at a sign in my CRX (although I had to wait to turn left).

I asked her where she was when she witnessed me not stopping, and she told me she was two blocks directly behind me.

i then asked her how she could tell, from behind, that I had not stopped.

her answer: "your taillights didn't go up and down twice."

when I asked her to explain that thought process, she told me at all cars taillights will go up and down twice if they come to a complete stop.

according to her....the lights go up when your brake, then settle down at the stop. then the lights go down when you take off, and settle up when the weight transfer comes back.


i asked her if she noticed anything about my car that might prevent the lights from appearing to go up or down.....like the fact that my car was a dropped CRX that I used for SCCA racing that had ultra heavy springs and tight shocks at all four corners..... or possibly the fact that i don't drive on the street like I do when i race, namely jackrabbit stops and starts.

she didn't notice.

so i got out of the car, and proceeded to show her that my car doesn't go "up and down" when you jump onto the hatch, much less slow to a stop on campus.


i still got the ticket.


and , stupid me, i didn't go fight it in court, since i was told by OUPD that they were not a "real" police force, and that that ticket would not end up against my record.

it did.

and it contributed to my loss of licence for points.


just goes to show you.....reason and logic hold no standing with traffic law.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
gonefishin said:
Seems to me the quarter story is irrelevant unless the guy in front of the judge changed directions 180 degrees at the stop sign - whoever said the judge was not too bright had a point.

With all due respect to the constabulary and their paychecks, these guys are paid not too shabbily at all. A rookie cop in Ontario generally starts at about $70K a year and it's all gravy after that, including plenty of overtime working things like auto shows, a well-defined career path, rock solid, gold coated pension and spectacular benefits. While there is an element of danger to the job, the death and injury rate for fishermen, lumberjacks, farmers, etc... is higher.

This having been said, I agree that respect will get you a lot farther with these folks than a curled lip, but then that's true for anyone isn't it?
And with all due respect in return, that rookie cop, who is most likely to get killed because of his inexperience will only be making 75k in ten year and may nt have moved up in rank ( although he ay have). So, if you took a job today and was only going to make an extra 5k a year after ten year, would you still consider that high paid. Additionally, a lumber jack will never enter an unknown situation in an unfamiliar room full of reported drug addicts, under the rules of engagement that are given to officers. My cousin was captain of the swat team for ten year before becoming a senior officer and the number of time he faced death of either himself or the person before him far ut weigh the chance of a lumber jack facing death. However, that’s not the point here and I appreciate your point of view.
 

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There's 2 kinds of law;

1, the letter of the law

2, the intent of the law

Some cops, (the ones fresh out of training or who work for schools, and small towns), will write you up for breaking the letter of the law, (which here a full stop means no wheel movement and one foot down. Left over from the foot clutch days on bikes).

Some cops, (the ones with actual life experence and common sense), will write you up for breaking the intent of the law. Which means you need to stop enough to make sure it is safe to proceed.

I think you got stopped by a cop on the fence of being a rookie and knowing better.

And sometimes they stop you for that just to see what else you might have going on. Like drinking, prior warrents, etc.
 

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Now I don't know the actual law as it pertains to Washington so I asked a family friend back in Montana his thoughts on this topic. He's a highway patrol officer and said if he saw a bike make a controlled stop at an intersection with no other vehicles present he would accept a slow rolling stop. He said a bike slowing down for a stop was much more aware of the intersection and that a complete stop wasn't always necessary.

He also told me this was a personal choice and that I should always make a complete stop and at least put one foot down when in town or if I didn't see him smiling at me from behind!

(As a side note he also said he could almost always tell a new rider by his poor balance when coming to a stop at an intersection.)

mindfungus
 

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For my 2 cents, it's just safer to put the foot down and focus all your attention on looking for traffic than to have even one brain cell working on slow riding at the same time. I talk to myself when I'm tempted to roll through .... put the foot down and take another look. JMHO.
 

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highlandman said:
For my 2 cents, it's just safer to put the foot down and focus all your attention on looking for traffic than to have even one brain cell working on slow riding at the same time. I talk to myself when I'm tempted to roll through .... put the foot down and take another look. JMHO.
I love this response! the only one that really makes any sense!

droy
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Let me just state that I had no objection to being stopped. I am certain he was using that simply as an excuse to make sure I was sober and safe. He did not hassle me and didn’t even quote the law that I now know is two feet down. Because that is the law, I will make sure I do that from now on. The officer was clearly in mid career judging by age. But he was truly a nice guy, he even commented on how much he liked the looks of my bike. I cant remember meeting an officer that I did not like in the last 10 odd years, even those who gave me tickets ( on two in that time).
 

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droy:

I'm not prejudiced, but ... nice bike.

Rick
 

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This has turned into a fun thread!
Let me state that I like most cops that I meet, too. I've had some good friends on the force in the past. And calling them cops on this site wasn't intended as a sign of disrespect. I don't know how much money they make, how long it takes for a promotion, etc. But I do know that you couldn't pay me enough to do their job. And not just because of the danger, either. (And it is dangerous) But I think that they're hassled everywhere they go - by the public as well as internally with their own politics. Most people are argumentative with them, and they need to be on their guard at all times, regardless of the appearance of the situation.
Regarding "intent" vs the "letter" of the law, in Ontario there is only the letter. Intent is meaningless as a defence according to the highway traffic act. Criminal law is different.
So Dragoon - next time you're home, look me up, and we'll go for a ride!
 
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