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Discussion Starter #21
Interesting carb info. I need to measure mine and see what I have. Mines an '01.

Good points about the exhaust, I did not factor in cam overlap.

I'd like to weigh mine once I'm "done" to see what ballpark I'm in. But I figure the major players for weight loss on mine were:

-stock battery replaced with lithium (5 - 7 lbs)
-stock airbox & plumbing gone (2 - 3 lbs?)
-stock rear subframe, subframe covers & seat removed and replaced with fiberglass & thin steel (5 - 7 lbs?)
-stock front fender mount & fender removed (3 - 4 lbs?)
-stock forward controls removed & replaced w/ rearsets (3 - 4 lbs?)
-stock risers, handlebars & controls removed & replaced with dirt bike bars & minimal controls (2 - 3 lbs?)
-stock side covers & electronics/battery tray removed - (2 - 3 lbs?)
-CBR wheels front and rear - no clue here, but I will weight the front wheel & rotor against my stock one (with material removed). Anyone want to weigh a tire-less rear wheel & brake for me to compare??
-exhaust replaced with custom (5 - 7 lbs?)
-assorted (factory speedo, indicators/lights, assorted tabs, etc.) - (5 - 7 lbs?)

So maybe a grand total of 30 - 40 lbs? So dry weight on these are listed as 496 lbs. If I could be in the 450-460 lb range (~7% savings), that wouldn't be too bad. If we use published HP numbers (38 wheel) for stock, then we're at 13.05 lb/hp or 153.2 hp/ton. With my upped power (42 wheel) and lighter weight (assuming 460), then I'm at 10.95 lb/hp or 182.6 hp/ton. If we assume the same 460 lbs and 60 wheel hp (like on PRSnow's conservative estimates), then were at 7.67 lb/hp or 260.8 hp/ton, which would make for QUITE a fun bike.


I just dug through my old e-mails with Jim at AFT and he told me cams alone were $575, developed mid - top end power and are made by a USA manufacturer. No mention of re-grind, but wouldn't give me a lick of information otherwise. The kit is 11:1 and results in about a 20% increase in power. IIRC, he bought the stock from DP (Designed Performance) who originally made these kits. The old shadowriders forums (pre major crash) had all the info you could want on this, but sadly, it's gone now. DP also sold the valves, and AFT is clueless to this work.

Going back to PRSnow (any chance you have his e-mail address??), here's a post he put up on shadowriders (practically defunct now) about his build (Engine Project - High Performance Upgrades - Shadowriders). I wanted to paste info here in case that forum ever dies again (it did once before, total loss of info, which sucked):


So I've been running my setup for a couple of months now and I just wanted to report on the modifications made, along with the results.

Modifications/Parts Replaced:
Replaced stock camshafts with MegaCycleCams Racing Cams (Grind 174-x8. $359)
Replaced stock valve spring setup with WebCams Performance Valve Spring Kit & Titanium Retainers (Part # VC-H68. $230)
Heads ported and intake throats opened up for use with larger 28mm valves (did myself)
Intake valves replaced with 28mm Intake valves from Designed Performance ($240 for all 4 valves)
Valve job done by local motorcycle/ATV machinist to fit larger valves ($175 for Labor)
Replaced stock pistons with High Compression Pistons (11:1) from Designed Performance ($275 for the pair)
Replaced stock ICM with Dyna 3000 Ignition Module ($230)
Opened up the air box side of the carb valves about 4mm in diameter, and removed the exccess rubber in the mouth of the intake tubes to match the size of the carb diameter. The slider valve and venturi side remained unchanged. (see pics)
Additional filters added to the air box to allow for more airflow and greater velocity strait into the carbs in conjunction with the external air filter. (see pics)
The total cost of the project was around $1500 including all the odds and ends such as new piston rings and getting the cylinder walls honed.

I'm running the engine with OOMP pipes and a tornado style custom air intake. Before the engine changes I was running with jets 132/130 with the needle clip at 3 (at about 4500ft altitude). Apparently the vacuum increased quite a bit because after the engine changes I had to go down to about 128/130 with the needle clip at 1, AFTER modifying the air box. The Dyna Ignition is set to timing option number 7 and a 7500RPM rev limit.

The changes to power are very dramatic. The low end power in first gear softened up a little too much, but after I re-synched the carbs I gained most of it back. I have not done any dyno tests, but just from my subjective opinion the bike pulls very well and has even more torque than before at the 1500-3500RPM range. Anything from about 4500-7500RPM the bike has EXCELLENT power, pulling very hard and is very responsive. In the 2nd and 3rd gear range you really have to hold on tight at wide open throttle because the acceleration is so quick. The throttle is very responsive in all ranges except only between 3000 and 4000 RPM at wide open throttle (WOT above 4k is not an issue). This is because the slider valves on the stock carbs are designed open fully much earlier than the engine is now requiring. This causes the slider valve to open fully too early, giving a rich condition in this RPM range no matter the needle/jet combination. I'll replace the springs with a stiffer design, allowing a smoother valve opening throughout the entire throttle range to correct the issue, however this is only a minor inconvenience at the moment.

I'm assuming the power gains are similar, if not almost identical to the roller cam setup used by DP cams. This is mainly due to the fact that the roller cam profile has almost the same lift and duration as the cam I used. Anyway, the upgrades were definitely worth it IMO, and cost considerably less than a DP roller cam setup.

I can still ride the bike like a large, torquie cruiser at low RPM with good power, but also ride at higher RPM (5k-7k) for large amounts of HP like a bullet bike. IMO it's the best of both worlds - it has both the low end power of a larger street-mannered cruiser, and high end power and speed of a bullet bike. Plus, my gas mileage for freeway riding (around 75mph) has IMPROVED since the upgrades! I'm now getting about 50mpg freeway riding whereas before I was at about 40. City riding has gotten a little worse though (about 40-45mpg). These results are from a good combination of both easy cruising as well as jack-rabbit starts and letting her rip.

I haven't tested its top speed yet. It takes under 5 seconds from 0 - 75mph, which is the top speed in 2nd gear using the stock 42t gear and a 170 maxxis on a VTX rim. Average power gains people have been getting with similar modifications is around 60HP at the wheel. If I had to guess I would say I'm getting at least the same, if not more.

Well stock power is about 39HP at the crank, and with the DP roller cam shaft setup it's about 60HP at the wheel. This is using an S&S Super E carb in place of the stock dual carbs, however (I don't know what type of intake and exhaust was used for DP's dyno results). I was willing to deal with tuning the stock carbs and modifing them for more airflow before I even bothered with switching to a single carb setup. So far with the stock carbs bored out and the airbox modified i've been getting excellent results and won't need to switch IMHO.
The specs on the cam shafts I used are very close to the DP roller cam setup, although mine are perhaps a tad more aggressive as the lift duration is slightly longer.
So, using modified stock dual carbs and a modified airbox with high flow intake and free flow exhaust, I believe I'm getting at least 60HP at the wheel.

In addition to the timing changes you could also overbore the cylinders up to 3mm, which would increase the diameter to 82mm and give you 803cc displacement. I'm not sure the extra 50+cc would make much of a difference, but perhaps it's worth a shot if you're looking to squeeze out everything this engine can offer.

Yep I didn't bore the cylinders, I just kept them at the stock 79mm. I had the machinist hone them for me and they checked the cylinder clearances for the piston and rings during that time. Yes I could have reused the orignal rings, but I had about 15k miles on the engine at the time so I just figured I would replace them since everything was already opened up anyway.
 

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AFAIK AFT's cams have to be a weld and regrind as there are no raw blanks out there for these engines, I doubt anyone is turning billets, and of course I could be wrong, who knows what lurks in Japan.

Losing weight is the cheapest performance boost up to a point. (-;

Thanks for posting the earlier PRSnow info.
I'd seen that before, but thought it was lost forever.
I have no contact info for him.

BTW IIRC here is my current ignition advance profile.
Notice it goes to 32 total not 42 degrees as previously stated I must have had my single plug head on when I wrote that. (-;
 

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Discussion Starter #23
AFAIK AFT's cams have to be a weld and regrind as there are no raw blanks out there for these engines, I doubt anyone is turning billets, and of course I could be wrong, who knows what lurks in Japan.

Losing weight is the cheapest performance boost up to a point. (-;

Thanks for posting the earlier PRSnow info.
I'd seen that before, but thought it was lost forever.
I have no contact info for him.

BTW IIRC here is my current ignition advance profile.
Notice it goes to 32 total not 42 degrees as previously stated I must have had my single plug head on when I wrote that. (-;
So 32 + the ~3 you did the the timing plate mod? I've done the 4 degree in the past and enjoyed the results. How does your curve compare with stock, from a riding perspective? Seems like it power would be a LOT more consistent and linear?

If the Dyna doesn't work out, would you mind sharing your curve with me should i get that box you have?
 

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The advance mod is not additive, just affects what the initial static advance programmed into the box should be.
The lack of advance say compared to a old sporty or something may seem surprising, but with two spark plugs it is really like lighting a candle at both ends, combustion is faster.
You can compare my curve in the photo directly with the stock timing graph on that colored Dyna3000 sheet.

From a riding perspective it feels like all round marginally stronger, more like one would imagine a 750 Shadow should feel like.
With my 17 x 41 gearing, a Bean box style intake, rejetted carbs and stock exhaust there are no flat spots it pulls pretty strongly up to my 6500 rpm shift light in 1st through 4th, I have not seen it lit in 5th, but that would be around 118 mph and I've really got no reason to be there.

I played around with the 0 to 60 times using a GPS app and it usually runs around 5 sec. flat, but that is really kinda cheating as it can get there in second gear.
I have an urge to take it to the drag strip, just to see, but that better not happen. )-:
 

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Discussion Starter #25
Ah, yes. Thanks for the check there. I had forgotten that the 4 degree mod was just initial.

Stock exhaust? Oh man, I can't stand the stock pipes on these. HEAVY and not too good looking IMO. I'm struggling with the shape of the pipes that I want. I kind of like the low, upswept ones w/ megaphones, but I also like some of the traditional tracker mid's. I'm fairly certain I'll go with lower, as it keeps the cg lower and it's not as much of a hassle with heat shields
 

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The stock pipes are heavy and pretty weird looking when you look at them closely, but functionally they actually match the stock engine very well.
For a stock engine I don't think the usual aftermarket pipes buy you anything, but sound.
I rather like the quiet power delivery, my intake makes more noise, but I have gotten to the point where I will have to give them up if I want any more performance improvement.
It seems to me that no aftermarket pipes for at least my ACE make any real sense other than the simple drag pipes and they'd lose me some bottom end and the sound would be the end of my fast runs through the neighborhood on the way home.

So that's got me thinking of welding up a lowish 2 into 1 with my own choice of muffler.
One side of my brain wants 1 5/8" primaries the other side 1 3/4", either choice probably dumping into a 2" merge style collector and secondary then an off the shelf muffler.
I have to clear and not melt my saddle bags, all while giving decent cornering clearance.
 

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Discussion Starter #27
For our motors, the smaller the exhaust pipes (to a limit obviously) the better the torque response. I researched this a lot and determined the 1.5 - 1.625 primary size to be best. Better than this is a stepped primary, but that is outside of my skillset.

Going with the weight savings thing, I'll most likely keep with the 2 - 1 approach. Likely have it exit underneath my foot control. I've practice leaned the bike to it's practical limits, and never found much issues, what with my taller (frame is 2+" higher I believe) stance and all. I'll probably just buy some stainless bends and straights and cobble something together so I don't have to wrap it. Cone Engineering megaphone, try and sell the supertrapp on there... Who knows
 

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Discussion Starter #28
Managed to get the lower triple prepped for paint and the new tapered bearing. I sure hate removing the factory races! Had to make a slit with the dremel then just beat the snot out of it u til it finally cracked. Managed to just barely knick the triple tube, but I buffed it down and very slightly rounded out the ends to prevent any cracks from forming in a bizarre situation.

Oh yes, welded up the factory headlight holes and the ACE fork shroud holes I drilled in. I'll have some ace shrouds for sale soon too. They're custom (include headlight ears welded on), but that's an easy fix.

Into the freezer it went to allow easy bearing installation, then paint and it'll be ready!.
 

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Discussion Starter #29
Thanks for the info, I'm always happy to learn of other people's adventures outside the "keep it stock" box.
I actually like my bike's stock appearance, but not so much the rather passive stock engine tune.

For the Dyna3000 advance curves check out:
Drive_Bye's Lead Sled
Look for the link on the left.
Check out the stock profile it is no wonder that these engines just kinda wanna lay down from 5500 rpm to the limiter.

I went with the Ignitech TCIP4 over the Honda TCI primarily for the shift light, and the entertainment of the start rev. limiter, there is a certain amount of fun, sitting there with the clutch in, throttle open, sitting on the limiter ready to launch when a bike pulls along side and does the throttle blipping thing. :)
For tuning flexibility and related fun there is a lot to be said for the Ignitech TCIP4, nothing comes close without spending megabucks.
The TCIP4 is rather popular with the modified carburetted Ducati crowd, it will supposedly also spin to 20,000 rpm, but I doubt the Dyna3000 8,000 limit will cause problems on any sane VT750. (-;

My ACE has the shift light come on at 6500 and the soft limiter kicks in at 6800.
The curve I use is a little steeper than the #7 Dyna curve and I already had 3 degrees of the "4 degree mod" done to my base advance, but ends up actually looking pretty close with 42 degrees total.

Here is something to think about: https://www.hawkgtforum.com/forum/honda-hawk-gt-bros-discussions/mechanical-and-technical/23466-bros-xrv650-cam-differences scoot down to the post by JanM.
The NC25 cam is the same one we have, also used in detuned versions of the NT650 and XRVs. The whole engine 3 valve family based on the VT500 engine has cams that interchange, the VT500 of course has a tach drive gear on the front cam.
You need the valve springs to match the cam swap. On the NT650s the Outer springs are the same as yours, but there is an inner spring. If you didn't already know you don't have to pull the engine to pull the top end off the bike, just a cylinder stud for clearance.

Your exhaust sounds good.
I'm planning an equal length 2 into 1 header for my bike at sometime, currently hard to sneak bike stuff past the wife and have been toying with purchasing these https://shoptjbc.com/collections/vt750-parts-collection/products/dom-steel-exhaust-bosses-with-collars-for-honda-shadow-vlx600-and-vt750 and also going the prefabbed route for the collector for the same reason as you.

The most extreme engine modder I've tried to follow on the www was PRSnow he managed to create a rather crazy VT750 engine and popped up every now and again online for a few years.
An example: https://www.hawkgtforum.com/forum/honda-hawk-gt-bros-discussions/new-members/24426-hey
How did the TCIP4 install? Was it as simple as plugging in your current harness?

I'm trying to doublecheck my wiring of the Dyna adapter. Originally I simply went off the pinouts from the factory service manuals, but that was quite some time ago. I wonder if all the components and ignition information are the same from Ace to Spirit...

Just found these links to one of the other guys running a TCIP4 on his ACE (Vomio on the 750ace.com forums, but it sure sounds like it might be you!). Seems to love it like you! Ignitech TCIP4 Arrived! - ACE Modifications - 750ace.com Forums and http://www.750ace.com/forum/index.php?/topic/4511-the-dyna-3000-ignition/page-3
 

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No that's not me, I'm his evil twin. (-;

The wiring harnesses are different between ACE and Spirit and that plug is different, I would think the color codes for the wiring would be the same Honda is pretty good about that, the engines are the same other than trim, controls are the same etc.

The TCIP is smaller than the stock box, i ended up cutting off the stock retaining clips from the battery cover and velcroing it in place to the cover at an angle so the serial cable popped out under the right side cover for easy workbench hook-up, there is plenty of length to the adapter cable, but the serial cable is kinda short.

The TCIP4 uses an adapter harness, but it just plugs in, when I sent my initial inquiry to Ignitech, I included the pictures of the stock box and connectors to be sure they got it right, because as you know the ACE and the Spirit are different. They came back to me with the option of the Honda TCI straight plugin box or the TCIP4 with the adapter cable, I went with the TCIP4 for the added fun and future versatility.
IIRC there should be some pictures by Vomio in the gallery section on that 750ACE site, if not I think I can dig them out and post them here if need be.
 

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Discussion Starter #31
Haha, I knew it!

I saw his pics, looks simple enough.

My thoughts are that if the ignition pickups and wheels are identical, then the pulse timing is the same and the dyna 3000 should work just fine.

But i understand that the dyna is likely worth more than the TCIP4 costs to buy, so part of me is leaning that way since I know it'll work :)

Thoughts??
 

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Discussion Starter #34
Couldn't help but mock up the front wheel. Going through parts inventort and working on the new-to-me rear swingarm. Plan is to get her standjng on her own 2 feet, then tackle valve adjustments and shifter arm work. Then electrical stuff and other diagnosing (fuel pump isn't working). Part/frame clean up and paint touch up is a constant battle. Figure I'll just do it as I go and deal with the perfection after her and one of her sisters are running :)
 

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Have you and my wife been talking???
Not so far as I know...

Wives are useless at seeing the big picture and the long-term plan. They never understand that it may take us 20 years to convert that pile of rusting junk into a beautiful bike, but we'll get it done eventually! :)

(Often they don't realise our doing the stuff they want and spending time with them takes up valuable bike time and delays any project by a considerable amount of time, sometimes by decades!)
 

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Discussion Starter #38
Got her back on two wheels (for the time being). Mostly did this to help me get off the bike lift and outside so I can finish up the frame grinding and try to get the seat subframe started and welded. Then back to strip down to paint and whatnot.
 

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Discussion Starter #39 (Edited)
For those interested (and to hopefully help preserve the information), I found out what grind AFT uses in their hipo kit: Web Camshafts 453 (.242 lift, 276 duration). All the cams will likely be hardwelds, and pricing is $573. Judging from AFT's advertised price, his cost seems pretty fair considering these are all low volume parts. The only problem with his kit is the cam is designed for high RPM power, which comes on like a freight train (from the reviews of those that own the kit), but it's higher than most will use. I personally would want more lower end and mid-range grunt to help with pulling out of corners and getting onto the freeway. I'm already running a 38 tooth sprocket, so this might allow for a further reduction to keep the power band where you want it for cruising at 75+ with minimal vibrations and improved fuel economy.

I'm working on getting the information from JE for the pistons to see what is available there. Ballpark piston costs - $500.

Figure in gaskets and you're likely right around what AFT charges. I'm sure there's a slight discount since he's sold a few of the kits, but not much. Regardless, you still need to factor in boring/honing, headwork, decking, tuning and other engine upgrades to help handle the increased power (if there are any). As everyone always says, making one of these fast is a LOT of cash, but it's certain to be a bunch of fun when it's done.
 

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Discussion Starter #40
Just heard back from JE. AFT uses a custom part that cannot be shared. AFT will not sell me just the pistons either, so looks like if you want a engine powerband that's not AFT's, you'll have to go do it on your own.

This means that stock pistons will have to be sent to JE to measurement and quotation based on needs. Looks like a potential avenue for the future, but AFT's holding on to his "IP" VERY tightly and not letting a BIT of helpful information out. He won't even share his jetting or timing specs.
 
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