Sea Foam contains Isopropanol, Not ethanol.

 

Most fuel injection systems have stainless steel and alcohol tolerant seals etc, and will handle ethanol OK Still, there's less potential energy in the ethanol fuel, so mileage may suffer. I notice a 10% drop in fuel mileage using 87 ethanol vs 91 non-ethanol in my car. Also drops with 91 ethanol, but not as much. Car has high enough compression to use the 91 though.

 

@gdb069 will probably chime in here, but the corrosion of low percentage ethanol fuel isn't really enough to appreciably shorten the lifetimes of most of the components of a carbureted fuel system. If you're running the bike consistently, it's no problem. If you let it sit for two weeks or so, THAT is where the stuff is evil, and starts gumming things up. That's not so much an issue for EFI, since it's basically a pump, tubes, and jets that are either open or closed many times per second. Not tiny little orifices always just sitting there bathed in the stuff.

Do you fill up with Regular or Premium? Here in Canada, most stations have a lower, or no, ethanol content in their Premium fuels. You can look up on YouTube how to test that. Just fill up a glass container with some and then see how much gets separated on the bottom to determine the percentage.

 

Thanks for the intro Troy !!!
Honda: since early 80s says fuel containing ethanol up to 10 % is OK and PON 86 or higher and I have been using E10 since 1988 (remember methanol and "gasohol"). My bikes and various cars are stored for 6-8 months a years using a fuel stabilizer and no problems. I did forget to stabilize an outboard engine for 2 years and that was totally gummed.
You should not require a fuel additives and certainly don't use an oil additive. If you think an additive might help, identify what the actual problem is and correct it. For storage, I fill the tank with PON 91 E10 since the fuel will lose some octane during storage but with PON91 your are still within spec after 12 months. I add Stabil for cheap, extra insurance. One of the benefits of E10 is that if there is any moisture ie condensation in the tank, the E10 will absorb it so no rust.
History: When fuel companies first introduced "gasohol" there were a lot of problems that has caused enduring myths. Gas stations had water in fuel tanks but the fuel floated so water stayed at the bottom. As stations converted to Gasohol, the Gasohol absorbed that water up to saturation point and that saturated fuel got pumped into vehicles. Any additional moisture caused the water to separate. Gas companies (early 90s) soon realized they had to pump out the water and install moisture sensors in underground tanks. Some older cars and inexpensive engines (lawn equipment) had fuel systems where some parts deteriorated with alcohol so we have a myth that the rubber parts are affected, however all major vehicle manufacturers have been working with alcohol in fuel since 1985 so most our vehicle should be OK and my older bikes are OK.

 

If you operate any gasoline powered vehicle regularly you'll never need additives. Gasoline is an excellent solvent in itself. My recommendation for small carburated engines is to use tier 1 fuel. Texaco, Shell, ExxonMobil... stuff like that.
If you have a long winter or you'll go 6 months or better without riding, maybe fill your final tank with non ethanol. Remember, a higher octane fuel is not better or cleaner that the lower octane of the same brand, it's just a higher octane. "Cheap" gas is cheap gas, doesn't matter what it's octane rating.

 

Excellent point about ethanol inhibiting rust inside the gas tank.

Maybe it makes sense to run ethanol gas in the summer, and keep it full of non ethanol gas in the winter when I ride less.

Now that the warm weather is here I don't even need to choke the 2009, but if I let her sit for more than a couple of weeks, she can be a little grouchy.

I think two weeks is about the longest I didnt ride last winter.

Now that I think of it, I honestly don't remember the last time I rode a bike that didn't have at least a little ethanol in it.

Despite the logic of ethanol gas removing water from the tank during the warm humid months, on my next fill up, I'm gonna fill it with non-ethanol fuel...

Gotta taste the Kool-aid! 🥤🤓 🏍

 

"ethanol inhibiting rust inside the gas tank"
"Maybe it makes sense to run ethanol gas"
"logic of ethanol gas removing water from the tank"

I think you have too much Ethanol in your Kool-Aid! LOL
'

Is Ethanol Bad For Motorcycles? An Engineer’s Explanation – Motorcycle Habit

motorcyclehabit.com

'

Gasoline 101: Let's Talk About Ethanol Fuel

Everything you need to know about ethanol fuel and your motorcycle.

www.motorcyclistonline.com

You want to know what I think? Well I`ll tell you anyways.

Avoid Ethanol gas in a carb motorcycle if you can.
Never store a motorcycle (or lawnmower, snowmobile, etc) with Ethanol gas in it.
If you have to use Ethanol gas in a Carb running motorcycle, I`d add a something to it to help get rid of its negative affects.

For every 100 guys that have run Ethanol in their carbureted with no ill effects, you`ll be able to 100 riders that Did have problems.
'
Statistics will drive you crazy......

Nerdy Statistics - Big Geek Daddy

Don McMillan shares some nerdy statistics that you might not have thought of before.

biggeekdad.com

 

For every 100 guys that have run Ethanol in their carbureted with no ill effects, you`ll be able to 100 riders that Did have problems.
'
Statistics will drive you crazy......

Nerdy Statistics - Big Geek Daddy

Don McMillan shares some nerdy statistics that you might not have thought of before.

biggeekdad.com

Ain't that a fact!!!!

 

Thanks for posting the article from the 2018 grad Mechanical Engineer. Do you agree with his statement: "The kind of gas motorcycles should use is ethanol-free higher octane gasoline (no less than a 91 rating). " He lost me there.

Second article: "Ethanol is a corrosive liquid and can damage parts not meant to come in contact with it, causing hoses and gaskets to swell, deteriorate, and distort." so recommends using Helix 5-in-one. So what's in Helix?
Butyl Cellosolve C4H9OCH2CH2OH a solvent
Ethylene Glycol (CH2OH)2 you probably heard of this. its coolant !!
Monobutyl Ether BuOC2H4OH another solvent also known as ButoxyETHANOL
n-Butyl Alcohol C4H9OH, solvent
Methyl Alcohol CH3OH hey remember methanol ?

The Nerdy stats video was great.

 

Thanks for posting the article from the 2018 grad Mechanical Engineer. Do you agree with his statement: "The kind of gas motorcycles should use is ethanol-free higher octane gasoline (no less than a 91 rating). " He lost me there.

Was probably talking RON, not MON or the system that the USA uses for rating octane. I think the 91 one will see in the manuals is generally the Japanese octane rating system number, which is roughly what folks in the USA would call 87 octane regular.

They can't understand why we use feet, inches, pounds or fahrenheit either. When I was a freshman in college prep. high school they had us learning the metric system, warning us we'd need it in professional life. Now, I'm a year or two from retirement, and the only time I've needed the metric system was for posts in the Royal Enfield forum.

 

Berryman B12 is pretty much pure solvent. I use it to clean carbs and soaking was definitely its strong point. I use it 2x a season. 24 yr. old Valk carbs never been touched YET and the last 10 yrs. using B12 but I'm sure old age will eventually become a factor. Usually Supertech, Walmart and Sam's gas are 10% ethanol but most are non ethanol depending on location. Close to I65 chances are greater to being ethanol blend.

 

And I've managed to go yet another day without using algebra.... sorry, couldn't resist...

 

I used algebra all the time, Mostly Boolean Algebra. Always had a 50/50 shot at the right answer.

 

So slightly off topic, but slightly back on topic... lol

I have noticed the engine on my fuel injected 2012 Aero has been a little noisier and seems to lose power when I'm riding around in 100 degree heat... (not unlike myself... lol)

From reading the "Fuelology" thread, I'm probably getting a little preignition and pinging due to a batch of suboptimum fuel.

To correct this, I should boost the octane of what's left in the tank.

Since this bike is fuel injected, I could just top it up with premium high-test, 93 octane... But that will be E10.

Or... And relevant to the discussion, I could top it off with 90 octane ethanol-free.

The ethanol-free available to me is NOT a top tier fuel, so I'm guessing that the better choice is to use a top-tier premium E10 fuel, since that will have more detergents to keep the injectors clean, and will also help bring up the average octane of what's in the tank.

If this was a carborated bike (like my 2009), I think I'd lean towards the non-ethanol gas. But with fuel injection, Top-Tier Premium E10 is probably the better choice.

I know I'm over thinking this... Gonna go ride around and enjoy the break in the hot weather!

Any thoughts to add?

Thanks again!

 

So slightly off topic, but slightly back on topic... lol

I have noticed the engine on my fuel injected 2012 Aero has been a little noisier and seems to lose power when I'm riding around in 100 degree heat... (not unlike myself... lol)

From reading the "Fuelology" thread, I'm probably getting a little preignition and pinging due to a batch of suboptimum fuel.

To correct this, I should boost the octane of what's left in the tank.

Since this bike is fuel injected, I could just top it up with premium high-test, 93 octane... But that will be E10.

Or... And relevant to the discussion, I could top it off with 90 octane ethanol-free.

The ethanol-free available to me is NOT a top tier fuel, so I'm guessing that the better choice is to use a top-tier premium E10 fuel, since that will have more detergents to keep the injectors clean, and will also help bring up the average octane of what's in the tank.

If this was a carborated bike (like my 2009), I think I'd lean towards the non-ethanol gas. But with fuel injection, Top-Tier Premium E10 is probably the better choice.

I know I'm over thinking this... Gonna go ride around and enjoy the break in the hot weather!

Any thoughts to add?

Thanks again!

With your bike being fuel injected, coming off a batch of suboptimal fuel, I couldn't imagine it needing anything more than a fresh top off of the good stuff. Whatever your manual says to put in it, 87, 89, 91 octane ... whatever, that's all I'd use. I'd just try to use tier one. With your bike being a 2012 model it shouldn't care whether you have ethanol in the fuel or not as long as you don't exceed the percentage spelled out for you in the owners manual.
If your engine is getting noisy you might instead want to look at your oil. Your other symptoms indicate more of a potential spark issue than fuel.
Bike engines are pretty simple pieces of machinery, especially the fuel systems. Fresh fuel, clean filters and regular use will keep your fuel system happy for a long, long time.

 

Yes, this shouldn't make much of a difference. You could also use a bottle of additives, like Techron, to make up for the lack of that non-top tier fuel if you use it. If you really feel the lack of such will be a truly bad thing... Do you find the lack of power is all over the range, or only when you're really giving it the beans?

 

Do you find the lack of power is all over the range, or only when you're really giving it the beans?

I didn't really notice it unless I was juicing it hard, like going from 0 to 60 pretty quick.

But the Shadow 750 is such a mellow bike, I could have been missing a little power just tooling around town and I wouldn't have noticed it.

Last night I topped off the tank with 1.6 gallons of 93 octane Shell Premium and rode 26 miles. It seems better but last night was in the 80s and today we're barely breaking 90F.

I wont really be able to judge until the temps go back to triple digits... And they will!

Just to muddy the waters, perhaps a cooler plug will tame your pre-ignition? And maybe the noise isn't pinging, which is kind of distinctive.

Interesting thought. My first car had a slant six and that would "bog" during hot weather... Never occurred to me to increase the octane or change the plugs.

With my 2012 Aero, it kind of sounds like valve noise. It revs normally, but the "vroom" sound she normally makes has a higher pitched metallic sound blended in with it...

With the addition of around a half tank of 93 octane and cooler temps, that metallic sound is gone... For now!

Not sure if it's the cooler temps or the higher octane, or both.

I'll keep putting high test in it until the weather cools back down...

 

The hot rod guys used to talk about home made recipes to boost octane. You can find a few such here:

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/homemade-octane-booster-recipes.296510/

After extended storage, I've found I've had to meddle with the mix to boost volatility because the old fuel was causing misfiring. Generally I just siphon out half the tank, dump that into my poor, long suffering Plymouth's tank, and replace from a gas can full of fresh fuel.

Just to muddy the waters, perhaps a cooler plug will tame your pre-ignition? And maybe the noise isn't pinging, which is kind of distinctive.

 

If only one could use MEK as an additive/octane booster.
I have 13 gallons of the stuff.

 

I remember people using MEK as an octane booster.

I used to boost the octane rating of super premium pump gas with toluene for running in a 13:1 compression engine.
It worked out cheaper than using race gas by a fair amount at the time, it is a long time ago, but I recall using 1 gallon of toluene to 4 gallons of gas to fill a 5 gallon can.

 

I looked into homemade additives as well, trying to boost 91 pump octane to 93 or 95. The ‘off the shelf’ boosters turned out to be only TENTHS of an octane point! I found a paper showing that MEK (Methyl Ethyl Ketone, or 2-Butanol) was a rather promising study for a fuel alternative. Measures as 117 RON.

Though I wouldn’t go nuts with it. It’s a rather potent solvent!

 

That's why I have it. As a solvent.
I'd have to check to make sure none of the fuel system components are MEK soluble. I could see how fun it would be to have a float needle tip disintegrate. Or if used in a car, a part of the pump or filter.

 

Sounds like the next step. Make these changes, then observe the results. The 'metallic noise' is different, since it doesn't sound like the regular 'ping' or 'rattle' that you get with pre-detonation. But if it goes away with higher octane gas or lower temperatures... The only other thing it could possibly be is the oil thinning out enough for more metal-to-metal contact, and I'd think a mere change in air temperature wouldn't be enough to cause THAT...

@Inferno , If you use the same guidelines as Ethanol, you should be safe with up to at least a 10% mixture.

 

My service manual for my 1996 VT-1100 C2 says it's OK to use 87 octane gas that's blended with ethanol up to 10%.
Now, I'll usually put that in it when I expect to ride it regularly.
And sometimes I have to put ethanol-blend gas in it when I'm on the road, in a strange town, where I don't know where to find non-ethanol fuel and don't want to take the time to search around (on the internet or in person).

THE PROBLEM WITH THIS PLAN is when you suddenly have to stop riding the bike, unexpectedly, and it ends up sitting for a while with that ethanol-blended gas in it. I'm going to have to deal with that any day now, when I replace the cracked and loose fuel line that gave out in late April. I took the tank off the bike then and have not used any of that fuel to run the bike, though I did start it and diagnose the problem and temprorarily reconnected the bad fuel line in a way that was safe enough to idle the bike in my driveway for 10 minutes to change the battery somewhat and to run frush fuel to the carbs. THAT FUEL, for that short idling session, came from an I.V. type bottle I hung up with a 3-foot clear vinyl tube feeding the gas to the bike, even though the tank was off the cycle. And it was fresh non-ethynol gas mixed with fresh Marvel's Mystery Oil.

 

...THE PROBLEM WITH THIS PLAN is when you suddenly have to stop riding the bike, unexpectedly, and it ends up sitting for a while with that ethanol-blended gas in it....

Not sure what the problem is but I rarely stop riding "unexpectedly". Typically I will have an hour or so before storage or before repairs or vacation travel, to take the bike to a gas station and fill with PON91 E10 and a stabilizer. Cost about $2 more than usual and that way if the bike comes out of storage in 8 days or 8 months, everything is good. If the bike will be stored more than a year, turn off fuel valve, run the carbs dry and empty the fuel.

If you stopped riding in April (3 months?) that fuel has not caused any problem, although I cannot imagine what the Marvel Mystery Oil does to your fuel since no refinery tests it.

 

FWIW, fuel at the airport is leaded, about 100 octane (I know, I know) and $6.16 today.
YMMV on whether or not they will fill a container but it appears the do NOT fill vehicles. Many if not most don't allow self serve.
Part of the reason they don't fill vehicles other than planes, is because they don't have an automatic shutoff for overflow protection as required by federal law.

Don't use aviation fuel in a car newer than 1974. It will ruin a catalytic converter. Lawnmowers, most motorcycles and pre 1974 cars are OK.
In case anyone wanted to know, my (former) 1965 Lincoln Continental listed a minimum of 95 octane in the owners manual.

 

FWIW, fuel at the airport is leaded, about 100 octane (I know, I know) and $6.16 today....

In high school we took our "perfomance" vehicles to Sunoco where they had a dial on the side of the pump. Dial went
190, 200, 210, 220, 240, 250, 260 so we cranked the dial to 260 chipped in money from our pockets and went cruising. There were actually just 2 fuels in the underground tanks (190 and 240) and the other numbers were blends adding alcohol additives (probably methanol) at the pump. I see Sunoco still sells 260 as race fuel and it is PON 104

 

Just an update on my 09 Spirit with the shared carb... She really seems to like the non-ethanol gas.

I've put a couple of gallons of non-ethanol gas in her a couple of times now, so any ethanol still in the tank is just trace amounts.

Rode the 09 exclusively over the July 3rd-4th holiday, and then let her rest a bit while I was dealing with the 2012.

Started the 09 today, and after not being started for 3 or 4 days, she fired right up -cold- and no choke needed.

It's been my experience that if I let the 09 sit for more than a day or two, she likes a little choke, even if it's warm out (over 80F).

This time I decided to test it, no choke, just to see if she would turn over.

She fired up like I had ridden her to lunch, and had just shut her off 30 minutes ago.

So the 09 will continue to get the non-ethanol gas as long as I can get it.

My fuel injected bikes will get top tier E10 most of the time, with an occasional dose of E5 93 octane...

The Shell Nitro 93 around here advertises itself as only 5 percent ethanol... And it's still cheaper than the 90 octane non-ethanol gas.

 

Well idiot politicians and groups who benefit from alcohol sales have made buying "pure gas" nearly impossible in Ontario, Canada, as of the first of July.
I'm going to have to rethink things, it used to be available at every 2nd gas station. Higher prices, 3 to 5% worse gas mileage and long term instability tends to suckle, but looks like my future.

 

Actually, if we live long enough, our liquid fueled future will probably look like this:

TruFuel Ethanol-Free 4-Cycle Engineered Fuel 110 oz - Ace Hardware

At $29, why don't we at least get a full, 128 oz gallon?

It would be cheaper to run on whiskey: https://www.jewelosco.com/shop/product-details.960000654.html

 

Interesting test

 

I've previously said, in this thread and then others, that I'll use standard 87 octane ethanol blended gas for normal riding but if I think I'll be putting the bike away for weeks or months at a time then I will do something different-- probably non-ethanol gas mixed with Sta-bil.

well today I had a sudden breakdown along the road while the gas tank is mostly full,
and full of standard 87 octane, 10% ethanol blended gas!

I hope that fuel doesn't have to sit there too long before I get the bike running again!!!

Otherwise I'll be draining the fuel system everywhere I can : the tank, the carburetor bowls, even the in-line fuel filter down underneath.

 

I've previously said, in this thread and then others, that I'll use standard 87 octane ethanol blended gas for normal riding but if I think I'll be putting the bike away for weeks or months at a time then I will do something different-- probably non-ethanol gas mixed with Sta-bil.

well today I had a sudden breakdown along the road while the gas tank is mostly full,
and full of standard 87 octane, 10% ethanol blended gas!

I hope that fuel doesn't have to sit there too long before I get the bike running again!!!

Otherwise I'll be draining the fuel system everywhere I can : the tank, the carburetor bowls, even the in-line fuel filter down underneath.

Sorry you got stranded.

I'm using the Ethanol free in my carbed 09 all the time now.

In the summer of '23 I tried mixing it up and using E10 when I was likely to burn most of it off in a day or two, but a couple of sputtering starts convinced me to go back to E0 all the time.

And I'm still treating it with Seafoam once every six months.

No fuel issues since.

The two fuel injected bikes (2012 Aero, 2014 Cb1100) have been getting E10 from the same trusted station whenever possible.

I added Stabil to all 3 tanks last December. In the winter the bikes can sit for up to three weeks... Hopefully not more!

The Stabil is peace of mind in case the bike's end up sitting.

I'm thinking I might top off all 3 bikes with E0 and Stabil in December, since the E0 seems inherently more stable too.

 

Just a note for your 09, it should have been designed to run the E10.
When the E10 first was forced upon us. Older vehicles had to up the jet size to make up
for the power loss from regular fuel to the E10.
I bet if your jets were swapped out with bigger ones your bike would run fine on E10.
Just some info in case you can't get the regular fuel at some point in time.

 

Just a note for your 09, it should have been designed to run the E10.
When the E10 first was forced upon us. Older vehicles had to up the jet size to make up
for the power loss from regular fuel to the E10.
I bet if your jets were swapped out with bigger ones your bike would run fine on E10.
Just some info in case you can't get the regular fuel at some point in time.

My carbed 09 seemed to be fine with the ethanol... Until it wasn't!

Have you seen this video on carbs vs fuel injectors by Ryan Fortnine?

All I know is that my carbed bike seems to run much smoother on E0, so that's what I'm gonna use until I find evidence to the contrary.

 

If you're going to park your bike for a long time, get the tank full of GOOD gas and add StaBil.
Doesn't allow condensation and will keep it from rusting.